Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[marknorton]

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Robert, as I have said (against forum rules, apparently) on the other thread, this really means users will need to touch the shutter release to clear the display (if any) first, so that subsequently pressing one of the arrow buttons is correctly interpreted.

 

As regards the one handed operation, I was playing with a Nikon D3 this afternoon and changing ISO on that camera is not a one handed operation either. I can live with it.

[charlesphoto99]

 

Are you even sure about that? This long time M film user would certainly have given a different opinion on how the M8 should be designed. Like keep the legacy framing (frame lines), pc socket, external iso control, etc. I wouldn't even have minded the camera a half inch or so more in height if it meant more robustness - might have even felt better balanced with the addition in thickness.

 

I think they listened to marketing people the most. A terrible trend in the business world today. I think Leica needed another six months of r&d and field tests. I know most pros would have at least said go back to the M6/7 framelines, which would have been easy enough to do before going into full production.

 

And here is hoping they are working on the FW in regards to reliabiltity issues. It may not be as sexy as the other changes wanted, until you are in the field and need to keep rebooting your damn camera with battery pulls. I don't think thats neccesarily hardware, but a confusion of software and hopefully can be fixed with some streamlining.

[robertwright]

ok here's another idea: There is redundancy in the arrow/wheel that we can take advantage of.

 

Assuming one handed operation is the goal-

 

modify the menu button operation. Put ISO on the top level of the menu directory. You would press Menu and you would be in the ISO directory actively, then you use the wheel to select and confirm with the shutter button or menu button again if you like.

 

To access the menus below, use the arrow keys only. they would not respond to the scroll wheel.

 

Have I explained it well enough?

 

Next step, EV-my feeling is to leave EV in the set menu where it is as a global setting. It would respect user profiles you might have set up.

 

If you wanted Ev adjustment on the fly the aforementioned Av+Ev mode could be enabled as a custom menu item, and the wheel or arrows would go "hot" whenever you are in Av. I see no reason to have Ev on the fly in manual mode-its Manual for a reason!

 

advantages, all one handed, with the exception of the shutter confirm does not alter any of the pre-existing modality. Set still does what it does in the menu. there is no way to cross it up. the wheel becomes like a direct analogue control dial for the missing ISO and EV controls and is intuitive.

[robertwright]

Robert, as I have said (against forum rules, apparently) on the other thread, this really means users will need to touch the shutter release to clear the display (if any) first, so that subsequently pressing one of the arrow buttons is correctly interpreted.

 

As regards the one handed operation, I was playing with a Nikon D3 this afternoon and changing ISO on that camera is not a one handed operation either. I can live with it.

 

that works.

 

I agree two handed can work, however in order to do it you must change the behaviour of one button, you are saying press and hold the set button to do this. I think I am 90% of the way there with you, but I am interested in maybe a better way if it exists. See my post above about the menu select.

[sean_reid]

Been away from the thread.

 

So to try to keep the thread moving towards something I wanted to summarize again.

 

There is the issue of one handed operation or two. I am for One-Hand-Clapping:D

 

There is then the consequent issue of timeout-this is something I did not see coming. I think it could be problematic. In other words you have a mode where confirmation is now only with the shutter button, yet all other modes confirm with the set button and dismiss is with the shutter button.

 

Hi Robert,

 

Actually, it would confirm with either the set or shutter release. You'll note that if you reread the first post in the survey or my first M8 review. Also, I think it would speed the camera generally if one could confirm settings (of various kinds) with a half-shutter press. That's also in the design I mentioned.

 

Any design will have compromises of some sort, as you know.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

that works.

 

I agree two handed can work, however in order to do it you must change the behaviour of one button, you are saying press and hold the set button to do this. I think I am 90% of the way there with you, but I am interested in maybe a better way if it exists. See my post above about the menu select.

 

I read your post on the survey thread so I am up to speed now. You are correct in that the "hold" setting does alter the behaviour of the arrow buttons. Sean may have to modify his workflow so that the up/down buttons activate the ISO/EV inputs. Up/down is not used in the hold/review flow. So you would push up/down and then use the left right to set the value.

 

it is unfortunate that that becomes counterintuitive, since up/down is more akin to adjusting a value setting than left/right. It may be a fly in the ointment...

 

otherwise you are right, you would need to hit the shutter first if "hold" was active. so it becomes inconsistent behaviour, which should be avoided.

[sean_reid]

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Are you even sure about that? This long time M film user would certainly have given a different opinion on how the M8 should be designed. Like keep the legacy framing (frame lines), pc socket, external iso control, etc. I wouldn't even have minded the camera a half inch or so more in height if it meant more robustness - might have even felt better balanced with the addition in thickness.

 

I think they listened to marketing people the most. A terrible trend in the business world today. I think Leica needed another six months of r&d and field tests. I know most pros would have at least said go back to the M6/7 framelines, which would have been easy enough to do before going into full production.

 

And here is hoping they are working on the FW in regards to reliabiltity issues. It may not be as sexy as the other changes wanted, until you are in the field and need to keep rebooting your damn camera with battery pulls. I don't think thats neccesarily hardware, but a confusion of software and hopefully can be fixed with some streamlining.

 

<G> Well, having input from film photographers doesn't mean the camera is perfect. But, it does preserve the key controls of a traditional M camera. No matter what they came up with people would have criticisms of one kind or another.

 

As for the reliability issue...many months ago, I surveyed owners, wrote about this, spoke to Leica, etc. It would be interesting to know how common it is now.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

Hi Robert,

 

Actually, it would confirm with either the set or shutter release. You'll note that if you reread the first post in the survey or my first M8 review. Also, I think it would speed the camera generally if one could confirm settings (of various kinds) with a half-shutter press. That's also in the design I mentioned.

 

Any design will have compromises of some sort, as you know.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I don't agree about the shutter button, altho I see the strong majority do think it a good idea to have confirm with the shutter. Canon's don't work that way. Hitting the shutter returns you unchanged like an escape key. I think there is good reason for this to stay like it is. But that is what we are debating of course.

 

I think like me, many users use the Leica as a compliment to other brands. It makes sense to respect the conventions of other brands because it is simpler on the ole brain. Switching between the MkIIds and 5D is awful because of that lack of standardization. So much so that the MkIII has moved towards the modality of the D series.

 

I don't know about nikons. does the shutter button escape or confirm?

[sean_reid]

For me, the ISO implementation is poor but I can live with it bc it is a film-era kind of thing, I tend to pick one "look" and stick with it. As conditions change I change lighting or approach but not usually ISO. Again, everyone is different.

 

That's the thing. For many photographers, myself included, the ISO can be as important as aperture or shutter speed. It depends on how one works.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

That's the thing. For many photographers, myself included, the ISO can be as important as aperture or shutter speed. It depends on how one works.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

and that excellent dynamic ISO mode of the pentax...it was enough that leica made a digital M, but dynamic ISO mode!

 

maybe one day.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hi guys i have yet to read either thread at all and not sure this came up and just food for thought on the EV control in AV mode. Maybe what would be good as i think about this when your actually shooting is when you press down to the second shutter to lock the meter right, at that point you hit the thumb wheel and spin up for over exposing a 1/3 of a stop each click and down for each click a 1/3. Than a flashing EV number in the finder or not flashing it just comes on and shows -1/3 or +2/3 like the shutter speed shows up. So you get a warning on where you are at. This way your eye never leaves the camera. Now i guess someone would ask how do you set it to confirm . You don't whatever you left at the last number in the finder is it until you maybe hit a delete button to clear it out when your done a series of that exposure comp. food for thought and again i have not had the chance to read either thread and this may have been brought up. Fresh meat to the party. LOL

[robertwright]

Hi guys i have yet to read either thread at all and not sure this came up and just food for thought on the EV control in AV mode. Maybe what would be good as i think about this when your actually shooting is when you press down to the second shutter to lock the meter right, at that point you hit the thumb wheel and spin up for over exposing a 1/3 of a stop each click and down for each click a 1/3. Than a flashing EV number in the finder or not flashing it just comes on and shows -1/3 or +2/3 like the shutter speed shows up. So you get a warning on where you are at. This way your eye never leaves the camera. Now i guess someone would ask how do you set it to confirm . You don't whatever you left at the last number in the finder is it until you maybe hit a delete button to clear it out when your done a series of that exposure comp. food for thought and again i have not had the chance to read either thread and this may have been brought up. Fresh meat to the party. LOL

 

I think I am killing my own idea here...what worries me about the Av+Ev mode is that you would have no way to know how to zero it out. The wheel just goes round and round. Especially since I suggested it be different from the set menu Ev setting.

 

I don't believe there is any way to display the setting in the viewfinder with the led segments we have.

[robertwright]

another summary:

 

does it worry anyone to change the shutter button to confirm from escape as I mentioned above.

 

I am getting closer to the simplicity of either sean or marks suggestion, I think the Av+EV idea is not so good.

 

Further reflection on the menu idea I had leads me to think it is not so good either, it would be weird to have ISO moved to the menu and all the others still left in set-menu.

[hankg]

That's the thing. For many photographers, myself included, the ISO can be as important as aperture or shutter speed. It depends on how one works.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Since the advent of digital ISO has become like aperture and shutter speed an exposure and creative control to be used on the fly. If you think the shutter speed is getting slow enough to compromise quality you can hike the ISO instead. In a darker setting you can set the aperture for the DoF you want and slowest shutter speed you are comfortable with and work the ISO instead of the aperture or shutter speed. It can change from shot to shot in a run of frames. You need control with the camera to the eye and focused on the action.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think I am killing my own idea here...what worries me about the Av+Ev mode is that you would have no way to know how to zero it out. The wheel just goes round and round. Especially since I suggested it be different from the set menu Ev setting.

 

I don't believe there is any way to display the setting in the viewfinder with the led segments we have.

 

Robert you could have the delete button to zero it out even in mid stream . Say your shooting and you have it half pressed and at +1 2/3 of a stop and decide heck i don't want it at all and want to be zero or -1/3 you than would hit delete it zero's than spin down one click. This way you have a quick out of a situation and also still use the button to clean it out after a series of shots. One button does the work of zeroing. Now all this has to get into firmware also so adding the EV light in the finder does also but that is just like the shutter most likely easy to do off the circuit board

[sean_reid]

Since the advent of digital ISO has become like aperture and shutter speed an exposure and creative control to be used on the fly. If you think the shutter speed is getting slow enough to compromise quality you can hike the ISO instead. In a darker setting you can set the aperture for the DoF you want and slowest shutter speed you are comfortable with and work the ISO instead of the aperture or shutter speed. It can change from shot to shot in a run of frames. You need control with the camera to the eye and focused on the action.

 

That's where I'm at as well, as I've written in posts before. I ride the ISO as needed, especially during jobs where I'm indoors, outdoors, indoors - all in quick succession.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

Robert you could have the delete button to zero it out even in mid stream . Say your shooting and you have it half pressed and at +1 2/3 of a stop and decide heck i don't want it at all and want to be zero or -1/3 you than would hit delete it zero's than spin down one click. This way you have a quick out of a situation and also still use the button to clean it out after a series of shots. One button does the work of zeroing. Now all this has to get into firmware also so adding the EV light in the finder does also but that is just like the shutter most likely easy to do off the circuit board

 

i like the implementation of the delete button as you say. could resuscitate the AV+EV mode. Right now Av is hard to use altho the memory function helps.

 

I guess the question is does the delete button zero the EV comp completely or does it return it to your preset if you have one? A lot of people have -1/3 dialed in as a matter of course.

 

edit" maybe I can answer my own question here,

 

maybe we don't need to zero the Ev with a button setting, but make it so that any turn of the scroll wheel lights the screen and displays the value you are at.

[hankg]

i like the implementation of the delete button as you say. could resuscitate the AV+EV mode. Right now Av is hard to use altho the memory function helps.

 

I guess the question is does the delete button zero the EV comp completely or does it return it to your preset if you have one? A lot of people have -1/3 dialed in as a matter of course.

 

edit" maybe I can answer my own question here,

 

maybe we don't need to zero the Ev with a button setting, but make it so that any turn of the scroll wheel lights the screen and displays the value you are at.

 

It should return to the preset (I have -2/3 permanently set). I'm not sure I'd want the screen flashing every time I touched the wheel.

[robertwright]

It should return to the preset (I have -2/3 permanently set). I'm not sure I'd want the screen flashing every time I touched the wheel.

 

well that is a good point, however sean's proposal does bring up the menu when you touch the buttons. I assume mark's does too.

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Hallo,

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[marknorton]

Robert, I think it has to, otherwise you have no idea where you are. If we had in-finder display of the new ISO or EV, it wouldn't be necessary, but we do not.