Is this a prototype? Help please!

[drnda]

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13 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I said the eBay sale was a fraud, not you. Here is a clue that should be useful if you read the eBay description about an original 1964 camera, look at the strap lugs. Or are you the eBay seller??

 of course not.. i just googled and found the same one for sale. everything is suspicious tp you from the start.  black device, topic title, red device.... i don't want any more discussion, you are right about everything.  thank you

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[250swb]

It is always possible that you want to see the best and find a bird of paradise, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and its extended family are ducks, you have to conclude it probably is a duck. Get your money back.

Edited September 13, 2023 by 250swb

[drnda]

16 minutes ago, 250swb said:

It is always possible that you want to see the best and find a bird of paradise, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and its extended family are ducks, you have to conclude it probably is a duck. Get your money back.

the ugly duckling eventually turned into a beautiful swan, but evil gargamel remained evil gargamel forever! 

[Anbaric]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

The serial number isn't even near the Swedish production run, it comes in a run of 3850 ordinary IIIG's

Sure, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have any connection with the Swedish cameras even if it were done at Leitz. In any case, it takes only a moment to write an email to Leica asking them to query a few serial numbers, and the last time I did this (with a perfectly ordinary camera - I was just interested in when and where it was delivered) they responded quickly. I'd suggest drnda does this for every unusual camera in the collection.

[drnda]

9 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Sure, but it wouldn't necessarily have to have any connection with the Swedish cameras even if it were done at Leitz. In any case, it takes only a moment to write an email to Leica asking them to query a few serial numbers, and the last time I did this (with a perfectly ordinary camera - I was just interested in when and where it was delivered) they responded quickly. I'd suggest drnda does this for every unusual camera in 

i did it today as you advised me in the first post.  we'll see, I'll report here what kind of response I got from Leica.  thank you for the correct advice.

[Pyrogallol]

Looks like a nice repainted camera to me, just spoilt by the lettering added to the bottom and any alleged rarity.

[drnda]

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14 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Looks like a nice repainted camera to me, just spoilt by the lettering added to the bottom and any alleged rarity.

I still don't believe that a man who had such a collection was involved in such miserable things as to fake and write some inscriptions.  I can't guarantee it though and that's why I sought help here.

[JohnW.]

2 hours ago, drnda said:

I still don't believe that a man who had such a collection was involved in such miserable things as to fake and write some inscriptions.  I can't guarantee it though and that's why I sought help here.

Perhaps he collected odd and strange Leica cameras knowing they were not what they seemed.  I know some people collect such items.  I have several Fed and Zorki Leica copies/fakes that I thought were actually quite well done.  They are definitely not what they seem but they work and can often be a talking point, as is this discussion. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello drnda,

The camera in the lower right corner of the first group photo appears to be a "Post Camera". Post Cameras were used for photographing Postal Meters. The 2 knobs in the front are for aligning the camera/lens to the Postal Meter.

This 1 seems to be based on a "Leica MD". The lens seems to be a 35 mm lens. Either f3.5 or f2.8.

The 2 red M3's may have been covered in red so that the Fire Department could find them more easily in adverse circumstance or/& so that they could be more easily identified if they were in a group of other cameras, etc.

The red cameras seem to be early M3's. Do you have to advance the wind levers to a stop 2 times before you can release the shutter?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited September 14, 2023 by Michael Geschlecht

[250swb]

5 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

 

The 2 red M3's may have been covered in red so that the Fire Department could find them more easily in adverse circumstance or/& so that they could be more easily identified if they were in a group of other cameras, etc.

 

Refer to the eBay link in which an 'identical' (similar) camera is for sale, look at the inscription on the plate on the back (in place of the film reminder), and ask 'why would the fire department in Sweden want to simply commemorate the disparate years of the lens and the year of the body?' Then look at the covering which is modern and very poorly applied. Then look at the body serial number and description as '1964' and then look at the strap lugs. Somebody is churning out these 'Swedish Fire Department' cameras. As well as asking Leica about serial numbers somebody should be asking the Swedish Fire Department because with these two and two more on eBay that is four 'limited edition' cameras made by Leica that nobody knew anything about until yesterday.

Edited September 14, 2023 by 250swb

[pgk]

A 'customised' camera is not in itself a fraud. But it can be used as a fraud by passing it off as something it is not. Some people actually like customised cameras in the same way that some like customised cars and Leica users are a broad platform and there is room for them too. The problem with a customised Leica camera is that it may not be clear nor obvious what has been changed or why. However member's of the forum will point out any 'markers' which suggest deviation from originality and there is vast expertise here which really should not be ignored.

[Rona!d]

Salaried professional firefighters are on permanent standby. They have time to repair their equipment, read books, play card games and even may have time to make "interesting" cameras. I´d suggest to ask the firedepartment if there was a colleague who was interested in Leica cameras.

I heard of a firefighter in Spain who restored a crashed Porsche 911 for his son. He had the time and the equipment to do so. It was an ordinary Targa not a prototype of a 1972 4WD Rallye Carrera RS Turbo whatsoeverspecial 😉

Very interesting to see the engraving as "Hand-Muster" while as a German I´d engrave "Handmuster" but I´m not a Leica collector.

[Anbaric]

22 hours ago, drnda said:

mine are the same as the one sold on ebay.

https://www.ebay.de/itm/334849998403?hash=item4df69d7e43:g:z4UAAOSwDZJkSpPc&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwOsLQB6UFN9HQ4aqJlqSKxinOEh2PUTG%2FMLObqcGpUd8g5s1ls9SeRDj3jDVkBtEJGft95V1usbNug7t4cr7NpQiX8GiOzgfZQntw6ieLMj9is3OJQs4Dy%2BUbptGHZN496EbZij8q5Gu03eKBypoveNGM5jVxaGFFHy4vD1AxbnaBIrkCp%2FPmPctf1mlGmmBPLbI6zuJjdv%2BPdIOIU4A70ucnirODzv3W270rLSPwXKUCiWAxeyA6STsgdcibjXdgg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR8q9lPjRYg

they are just from the another year

I'm curious about what you see when you look through their viewfinders. The ebay advert makes a claim about masking for long lenses, though the picture they show looks like prism separation, a fairly common problem with the M3:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MHQAAOSw8fNkSpPq/s-l1600.jpg

Compare with:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/leica-m3-viewfinder-repair-question.144420/

Edited September 14, 2023 by Anbaric

[drnda]

4 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I'm curious about what you see when you look through their viewfinders. The ebay advert makes a claim about masking for long lenses, though the picture they show looks like prism separation, a fairly common problem with the M3:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/MHQAAOSw8fNkSpPq/s-l1600.jpg

Compare with:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/leica-m3-viewfinder-repair-question.144420/

I Will make a pictures later

[Anbaric]

9 hours ago, 250swb said:

Refer to the eBay link in which an 'identical' (similar) camera is for sale, look at the inscription on the plate on the back (in place of the film reminder), and ask 'why would the fire department in Sweden want to simply commemorate the disparate years of the lens and the year of the body?' Then look at the covering which is modern and very poorly applied. Then look at the body serial number and description as '1964' and then look at the strap lugs. Somebody is churning out these 'Swedish Fire Department' cameras. As well as asking Leica about serial numbers somebody should be asking the Swedish Fire Department because with these two and two more on eBay that is four 'limited edition' cameras made by Leica that nobody knew anything about until yesterday.

These cameras are oddities no matter what their origins. The back plate looks more like an asset tag / inventory plate than anything commemorative and I'm not sure that the two lines are supposed to refer to a lens and body, or that the second line (which isn't unique between the ebay advert and one of the two in this thread) is supposed to be a date range. The words appear to mean something like 'object' and 'replacement'. I don't know what would be gained by changing a serial number to one later than the strap lug style, but I suppose any camera could at some point acquire the wrong top plate for whatever reason. If this is some confected camera, I'm not sure what the market would be for it without any documentation, though I suppose if you had a low value M3 to start with (e.g. one with a separated viewfinder and the wrong top plate!), this would be one way of making it more 'interesting' on ebay. Whether authentic or a fantasy camera, I don't think this is supposed to be a 'special edition' in the commemorative sense, but rather one that has (or is meant to give the impression it has) been made or modified for some utilitarian purpose (like the 'post' cameras). A real camera of this kind might plausibly have a red covering and plate to make it more easily identifiable and less likely to be 'borrowed' from work, and we might even imagine a batch of them could appear on the market after someone cleared out a store cupboard of old surplus gear (though of course we can imagine a few other possibilities here).

[qqphot]

The covering on the one in the eBay listing looks a lot like the "cherry MG grainy" covering you can get from Hugostudio, though hugostudio's coverings are usually a near-perfect fit and pretty easy to apply better than the ones on these cameras seem to be.  I don't think there's anything wrong with customizing a camera like this, though I wish a bit more care had been taken with it and it's sort of uncool to try it imbue it with special collector value when selling.

[willeica]

9 hours ago, pgk said:

A 'customised' camera is not in itself a fraud. But it can be used as a fraud by passing it off as something it is not. Some people actually like customised cameras in the same way that some like customised cars and Leica users are a broad platform and there is room for them too. The problem with a customised Leica camera is that it may not be clear nor obvious what has been changed or why. However member's of the forum will point out any 'markers' which suggest deviation from originality and there is vast expertise here which really should not be ignored.

Paul, your points make sense. Personally, I wince when I see people sending off cameras to some guy in Japan to add shiny paint to it, but if it is their money they can do what they want with it. Most collectors I know want cameras which are as close as possible to what was originally sold and the only alterations that might get past them would be changes which were made 'in period' or for the purpose of making the camera work again. I own maybe 50 or 60 vintage Leica cameras and the 'black' IIIg shown above would have no interest for me or for most collectors that I know, but if others would want to spend their money on such things I would have no objection . However, if I was asked for my advice on its origins and originality I know exactly what I would say. 

William 

[250swb]

31 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

but rather one that has (or is meant to give the impression it has) been made or modified for some utilitarian purpose (like the 'post' cameras).

And yet you don’t find that troubling?
 

No? Ok, you win, it’s a Swedish Fire Department camera, and worth every penny or at least the market will decide. The OP’s two similar cameras were in an established collection that came to market and independently two more are on eBay at the same time that this thread started. That is where my confusion started, I hadn’t factored in the pure coincidence of seeing so many rare cameras appear out of the shadows. I am sure the OP will be appreciative of your efforts to convince me of my error and I hope he can find the documentation for these and also his Leica prototypes.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Anbaric]

7 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I am sure the OP will be appreciative of your efforts to convince me of my error and I hope he can find the documentation for these and also his Leica prototypes.

Huh? I wasn't trying to convince you (or anyone else) of anything, but you seem determined to assume bad faith (and not only from the maker of the camera). I'm just speculating about its various oddities - if modified by a third party, as seems likely, what impression were they trying to create? Personally, I wouldn't be in the market for something like this even if it were authentic and documented (though I quite like red). As it stands, it would be worth a fair bit less to me than an unmodified camera, especially with the missing film speed reminder and the potentially separated finder.

[250swb]

37 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

 but you seem determined to assume bad faith (and not only from the maker of the camera). 

Well somebody made them, and doing it may have been entirely innocent at the time, but it is whoever is adding an identity and marketing them that’s the problem isn’t it? The hyperbole kicked off immediately with the word ‘prototype’ instead of ‘custom’ (I have no idea what the OP was told about the collection), it continued with ‘Swedish Fire Department’ and not ‘custom’. There is a similar M3 to the IIIG in the photo of the whole collection, but one is a prototype and one a custom M3? Close inspection may show I’m mistaken and they aren’t at all similar in finish and style, but following the lineage and clues isn’t a bad thing to do if it saves somebody some money somewhere down the line. So with no suspicion attached somebody made a terrible job of refinishing a rare prototype Leica, and somebody made a terrible custom job of making some red coloured M3’s, does that suit you? But ‘terrible’ is the common denominator.

Edited September 14, 2023 by 250swb