Leica M2 - eBay...Think I Got Scammed

[baumannam]

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Hi All,

Just wondering your thoughts.  I have been saving up for an M2 for a while now and happened across this M2 on eBay the other day.  I failed to do some due diligence in looking at the seller being new - and having no other items for sale now or in the past - because I hit the Buy Now as soon as I looked at the price and the pictures.  It has been marked as shipped, but while the listing stated Encinitas, CA as the location of the sale/item, it has shipped from NYC.  A message response from the seller also used language referring to the USPS facility as a triage center which seems a bit odd as I have never heard a US seller call a postal facility a "triage center."  Think I got scammed based on the listing?  I tried a reverse image search of the images of the camera and searched the internet for the serial numbers of the camera and the lens and had no hits.  My thought is I am going to receive something else worthless in the package so I plan on recording images and video that detail the package sealed and the unboxing process.

I know the adage...If the deal looks to good to be true....but I have had decent luck stumbling on great eBay deals with some persistence (i.e. I found a pristine Rolleiflex 2.8 for $200 last year that was probably only listed for a few minutes before I bought it)

[jaapv]

Just wait and see what turns up. Anybody has a first sale on ebay. At least it is covered by eBay’s guarantee. 

[baumannam]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Just wait and see what turns up. Anybody has a first sale on ebay. At least it is covered by eBay’s guarantee. 

That's what I'm trying to keep telling myself.  I know either through eBay or my bank I'd get the money back.  I think I'd be most upset with not getting the camera that I've been wanting for quite some time now.

[RexGig0]

The eBay buyer protection can work quite well. Give the item time to arrive, by the predicted arrival date. If it does not, follow the instructions provided at eBay. I have done this, more than once.

Edited to add: Having now looked at the listing, well, the too-brief description would be a big red flag, in addition to the very low price and the seller being new. I hope that you paid via normal procedure, rather than some special arrangement outside the eBay system.

Edited September 12, 2023 by RexGig0

[jaapv]

I am sure that if it turns up, it will need to be sent in for a thorough CLA.

[250swb]

Short seller descriptions can come from people who aren’t camera geeks, not everybody who owns a Leica knows that much about them or even cares, but it does say the camera works as intended which gives you a big advantage. If it arrives and it doesn’t work, bad shutter speeds, fungus in the lens, etc. you have a good claim to send it back and eBay will refund you if the buyer doesn’t. Or you can contact the buyer and explain what aspect of the camera and lens doesn’t work and ask if they want to pay for the repair. I don’t mean be unreasonable about its condition, it will have wear apparent, but you are in a good position given the description.

[Anbaric]

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I've no idea about this particular camera, but if you purchase a suspiciously cheap item at any time, another thing to do is check the serial number with info@leica-camera.com (I believe Leica keeps records of lost or stolen cameras that have been reported to them).

[Huss]

If it shows up, you got a deal.  If it doesn't, you get your money back via ebay.

[baumannam]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Short seller descriptions can come from people who aren’t camera geeks, not everybody who owns a Leica knows that much about them or even cares, but it does say the camera works as intended which gives you a big advantage. If it arrives and it doesn’t work, bad shutter speeds, fungus in the lens, etc. you have a good claim to send it back and eBay will refund you if the buyer doesn’t. Or you can contact the buyer and explain what aspect of the camera and lens doesn’t work and ask if they want to pay for the repair. I don’t mean be unreasonable about its condition, it will have wear apparent, but you are in a good position given the description.

Thanks for the reply.  Yeah, I've done this for a number of items from Japan on eBay before.  They are almost always described not accurately and it becomes an easy avenue for a quick return or partial refund for the repair needed.

[250swb]

30 minutes ago, baumannam said:

Thanks for the reply.  Yeah, I've done this for a number of items from Japan on eBay before.  They are almost always described not accurately and it becomes an easy avenue for a quick return or partial refund for the repair needed.

That’s disconcerting because I’ve always found goods from Japan to be generally accurately and honestly described, although the term ‘mint’ has now to be taken with a pinch of salt. I would say of the many things I’ve bought from Japan they are far better than expected.

[baumannam]

5 minutes ago, 250swb said:

That’s disconcerting because I’ve always found goods from Japan to be generally accurately and honestly described, although the term ‘mint’ has now to be taken with a pinch of salt. I would say of the many things I’ve bought from Japan they are far better than expected.

I often find haze or fungus that goes unmentioned and the last few camera bodies I bought had issues while in specific settings (for example the Minolta XD I just bought fires the shutter fine in aperture priority, but the shutter sticks on 1/500 in manual only...odd issue but I received a partial refund)

[250swb]

3 minutes ago, baumannam said:

I often find haze or fungus that goes unmentioned and the last few camera bodies I bought had issues while in specific settings (for example the Minolta XD I just bought fires the shutter fine in aperture priority, but the shutter sticks on 1/500 in manual only...odd issue but I received a partial refund)

Fungus is a problem in lenses and cameras from Japan. 

[spydrxx]

Last week there were a number of Leica cameras priced between $635 and $639 by sellers having 0 sales/feedback. I ended up reporting as potential fraudulent listings of  about a dozen Q2 and Q3 cameras listed as new in this price range as BIN from sellers with 0 rating. Some were taken down, some went thru as actual sales although the listing details were duplicates of earlier listings by other sellers. It will take a few weeks for the details to show up whether they were good sales or bogus....usually if they are bogus they still show up as completed sales, but when you click on them for details you get a message they can't be found....which I've taken to mean Ebay had to do a refund. I sincerely hope you have better luck with your M2 purchase, but as others noted, the Ebay guarantee is there for a reason and works quite well. If you have an issue though, don't hesitate to contact Ebay ASAP so they can get involved in the resolution process.

[baumannam]

10 hours ago, spydrxx said:

Last week there were a number of Leica cameras priced between $635 and $639 by sellers having 0 sales/feedback. I ended up reporting as potential fraudulent listings of  about a dozen Q2 and Q3 cameras listed as new in this price range as BIN from sellers with 0 rating. Some were taken down, some went thru as actual sales although the listing details were duplicates of earlier listings by other sellers. It will take a few weeks for the details to show up whether they were good sales or bogus....usually if they are bogus they still show up as completed sales, but when you click on them for details you get a message they can't be found....which I've taken to mean Ebay had to do a refund. I sincerely hope you have better luck with your M2 purchase, but as others noted, the Ebay guarantee is there for a reason and works quite well. If you have an issue though, don't hesitate to contact Ebay ASAP so they can get involved in the resolution process.

I was curious about the other listings, so I did a search of completed Leica sales between $635 and $639 and found this curious M3 with 50mm Summarit for the same price as my listing with the same amount for shipping that I paid.  It was removed so I was only able to screenshot the listing in the search results.  This fills me with about zero confidence that I will unbox an M2 when the package arrives tomorrow.

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[baumannam]

Welp...here's the proof.  Found three listings - including the one I bought - for the same camera and lens (serial numbers and photos all match)

126071921415

126091895756

355022533776

[spydrxx]

Hang in there and see what shows up.

[pedaes]

2 hours ago, baumannam said:

including the one I bought

Either camera or lens would be worth that figure - camera probably x2. Old adage - if it looks to good to be true probably is.

Stick to Leica dealers with good reputations or specialist photography auctions, and this Forum's classifieds of course!

[Huss]

3 hours ago, pedaes said:

Either camera or lens would be worth that figure - camera probably x2. Old adage - if it looks to good to be true probably is.

Stick to Leica dealers with good reputations or specialist photography auctions, and this Forum's classifieds of course!

I've had zero issues buying on ebay.  If I've been scammed - ebay has always refunded me.  I actually feel better/safer buying off ebay than a forum's classifieds as there never is an issue/argument if there is a problem.  Don't get me wrong, I have bought plenty off forums but ebay IS safer.

[jakontil]

5 hours ago, baumannam said:

Welp...here's the proof.  Found three listings - including the one I bought - for the same camera and lens (serial numbers and photos all match)

126071921415

126091895756

355022533776

so you saying 3 different listings with exactly the same items?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[baumannam]

1 minute ago, jakontil said:

so you saying 3 different listings with exactly the same items?

Yep.  All of those listings have the same exact camera and lens - serial numbers all match