Is the M10-R a downgrade?

[James1975]

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I got the M11 at launch and sold it a few weeks later. Not a hate thread by any means but it felt unfinished with freezes, charging issues and other problems that genuinely upset me enough to offload it. 
I have the M11M which in contrast is absolutely immaculate and my go-to camera (even if I can’t help feeling the M10M had an undefinable quality that, personally, produced more beautiful images to my eyes).

Given my investment in M lenses, it makes sense to me to buy a colour body and I wonder, for those lucky enough to have shot both, if the M10-R holds up against the M11. My uninformed take is that the 40mp sensor is an advantage over the 60 and the only pros with the M11 would be vaguely superficial/practical ones unconnected to the images themselves (in-body charging, less weight, internal memory, bigger battery). 
In terms of pure image quality and reliability would you guys be comfortable with buying a new M10-R or prefer to wait until the (allegedly imminent) M11-P/R and hope that whatever teething issues have been fixed by then. 
Again, I’m aware that many have not had any issues with the M11, but my personal experience is that it damaged my trust in the brand a lot and I just couldn’t rely on it. 

I appreciate your thoughts. 

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[irenedp]

I don’t have an M11 so please consider this as mere thoughts. In the M category  I started with a 9P, which I love dearly. As the 11 came along I bought from my dealer, who is also a friend, a 10r barely used by a rich customer. Besides the fact that I don’t like the color as much as the 9’s, it has advantages such as a bit more resolution -which gives print size but requires more care with the shutter speed- and the EVF, which helps me with focus on the 28 and the 75. That is important, the  rest of the theoretical advantages including the histogram are meaningless. 

About a year ago I sold a Fuji GFX 100, used professionally, because the color was very difficult to match with the other cameras I use and the sharpness was worse than my S2’s. I changed it for an S3 and I am happy. The GFX has IBIS and is mirrorless but I shoot on a tripod and see no problem on acquiring focus in a liveview.

What I mean with the example is that an advantage is not what a prescriber says it is, but what helps you. You have an M11. If there is a feature from it that you would miss in the 10t, that is an issue and you should weigh it. Otherwise I would dismiss it right away. 

My tuppence. Hope it helps 

[MaticB]

I have both - M10R BP and M11Monochrom. Considering image quality, you can "fill" (detect) higher resolution in M11Mono files (using the same lens on both), but that doesn't mean M10R files are lesser! Actually, I even prefer them that way, and combination of both cameras are just what I want to have. The prints from both, and here I thing big ones, are just perfect. 

[jakontil]

for my kind of photography which mainly cover streets, portraits and a little bit of amateur landscapes, safe to say the M10r in terms of image quality are not inferior to M11 as i use them in tandem for the last year or more 

i always carry them both when travelling and acting as back up to one of another, i always set the m11 at 36mpx anyway, so the only advantage i feel the M11 have over the M10r is its battery life and usb c charging 

that said, M10r is nowhere near a downgrade 

[hepcat]

3 hours ago, James1975 said:

I got the M11 at launch and sold it a few weeks later. Not a hate thread by any means but it felt unfinished with freezes, charging issues and other problems that genuinely upset me enough to offload it. 
I have the M11M which in contrast is absolutely immaculate and my go-to camera (even if I can’t help feeling the M10M had an undefinable quality that, personally, produced more beautiful images to my eyes).

Given my investment in M lenses, it makes sense to me to buy a colour body and I wonder, for those lucky enough to have shot both, if the M10-R holds up against the M11. My uninformed take is that the 40mp sensor is an advantage over the 60 and the only pros with the M11 would be vaguely superficial/practical ones unconnected to the images themselves (in-body charging, less weight, internal memory, bigger battery). 
In terms of pure image quality and reliability would you guys be comfortable with buying a new M10-R or prefer to wait until the (allegedly imminent) M11-P/R and hope that whatever teething issues have been fixed by then. 
Again, I’m aware that many have not had any issues with the M11, but my personal experience is that it damaged my trust in the brand a lot and I just couldn’t rely on it. 

I appreciate your thoughts. 

There is much unsaid in your post.    For me, who only occasionally prints 24"x36" 24mp is more than adequate.  Actually an 18mp M9 sensor was more than adequate.  Smaller files require less computer processor and significantly less storage...  particularly if you're mainly producing internet files at 1600px on the long side.    Now, if you're printing 40"x50" regularly or larger, you obviously have different needs.   I shot with a Phase One XF and Leaf Credo 40 for nearly 10 years, and quite frankly the files, while lovely, were a pain to store and work with just at 40mp.   Unless you're in a commercial production, large-print setup, I can't imagine why 60mp is desirable... or even 40mp. 

You also don't mention what drew you to the M11 originally.  None of the new "features" it offers are particularly important to me.  YMMV, but you don't mention specifically any of them you find endearing.   My take, personally, is that the M10-P is probably THE definitive Leica rangefinder body.   All you need and nothing you don't with meaningful improvements rather than just some changes that aren't necessarily valuable. 

I'm just curious what you find superior in the M11 and why?

[maxpower]

The main annoyance I find when using both M10- and M11-series bodies is that they have different menus and batteries so switching between them fast can sometimes be confusing when going through the menu or playback, and you can't share batteries between them. But all cameras bring something else to the table and are very worthy and capable. I do also enjoy the GPS tagging with the M11 and my phone, but I'm also fine not having it on the M10s as I usually know where I've been. So it's all very trivial things, the images from all my cameras are as great and only limited by my own skill or lack thereof. Maybe a real noticeable difference could be shooting wide open on sunny days as the electronic shutter of the M11 series can be useful for that? But we don't know how you use the camera.

I think the M10-R and M11 are both great and the practical differences are negligible for most people. The M11 hurt your trust in the brand, but you did still end up going for an M11M and are satisfied with that. Who knows what an M11-P will do for you! 

The way I see it it's simple: If you have the budget and are willing to wait, then wait for the M11-P and see what you think then, maybe even await some real life experiences from people and see how it fares and then depending on region/store you could buy and return if it does not appease. But you can also get the M10-R now for probably less money than the M11-P will be and be very happy with it as well; as others said I don't think it can be considered a downgrade, they are just different in minute ways.

[James1975]

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5 minutes ago, hepcat said:

There is much unsaid in your post.    For me, who only occasionally prints 24"x36" 24mp is more than adequate.  Actually an 18mp M9 sensor was more than adequate.  Smaller files require less computer processor and significantly less storage...  particularly if you're mainly producing internet files at 1600px on the long side.    Now, if you're printing 40"x50" regularly or larger, you obviously have different needs.   I shot with a Phase One XF and Leaf Credo 40 for nearly 10 years, and quite frankly the files, while lovely, were a pain to store and work with just at 40mp.   Unless you're in a commercial production, large-print setup, I can't imagine why 60mp is desirable... or even 40mp. 

You also don't mention what drew you to the M11 originally.  None of the new "features" it offers are particularly important to me.  YMMV, but you don't mention specifically any of them you find endearing.   My take, personally, is that the M10-P is probably THE definitive Leica rangefinder body.   All you need and nothing you don't with meaningful improvements rather than just some changes that aren't necessarily valuable. 

I'm just curious what you find superior in the M11 and why?

I can't find anything superior in the M11 because I have never shot an M10. I bought the M11M and I really do love the images it produces. But more than that, I feel confident using it because, unlike the M11, it has never frozen or let me down. I bought the M11 originally because it was billed as an upgrade in every way to the M10 and I had waited for its release. I was, personally speaking, wrong about this.

I would rarely if ever print very large and so I agree with you re megapixels. But I would like the margen and upgrades of the 40mp M10-R above the P, from what I´ve read. I am really interested that you rate the P better than the R. I do, occasionally, create large prints but, again like you said, 60MP is too much and 40 would absolutely suffice.

Like others have said there are practical benefits, given I have the M11M, to having a body with the same battery and menus (and honestly the in camera charging is a blessing). But none of this will beat the feeling that I have a camera body that I can rely on and feel confident with. That is what I would hope that the M10-R (or, indeed P) would bring.

[James1975]

7 minutes ago, maxpower said:

The main annoyance I find when using both M10- and M11-series bodies is that they have different menus and batteries so switching between them fast can sometimes be confusing when going through the menu or playback, and you can't share batteries between them. But all cameras bring something else to the table and are very worthy and capable. I do also enjoy the GPS tagging with the M11 and my phone, but I'm also fine not having it on the M10s as I usually know where I've been. So it's all very trivial things, the images from all my cameras are as great and only limited by my own skill or lack thereof. Maybe a real noticeable difference could be shooting wide open on sunny days as the electronic shutter of the M11 series can be useful for that? But we don't know how you use the camera.

I think the M10-R and M11 are both great and the practical differences are negligible for most people. The M11 hurt your trust in the brand, but you did still end up going for an M11M and are satisfied with that. Who knows what an M11-P will do for you! 

The way I see it it's simple: If you have the budget and are willing to wait, then wait for the M11-P and see what you think then, maybe even await some real life experiences from people and see how it fares and then depending on region/store you could buy and return if it does not appease. But you can also get the M10-R now for probably less money than the M11-P will be and be very happy with it as well; as others said I don't think it can be considered a downgrade, they are just different in minute ways.

This is really helpful. I see all of your points and agree. It isn't a question of money but that said I can get an M10-R brand new for 8.100 euros and I can't believe the M11-P would be under 9.000 (if and when it arrives).

I also do wonder about the rationale of 60MP. Like has been mentioned, 40 would more than suffice and also have a benefit to image quality in certain conditions. And if it means there is no risk of dodgy firmware or other issues the 10R seems like a no brainer. But , as always, this place is so helpful for gathering more opinions and information...

[hepcat]

5 hours ago, James1975 said:

I can't find anything superior in the M11 because I have never shot an M10. I bought the M11M and I really do love the images it produces. But more than that, I feel confident using it because, unlike the M11, it has never frozen or let me down. I bought the M11 originally because it was billed as an upgrade in every way to the M10 and I had waited for its release. I was, personally speaking, wrong about this.

I would rarely if ever print very large and so I agree with you re megapixels. But I would like the margen and upgrades of the 40mp M10-R above the P, from what I´ve read. I am really interested that you rate the P better than the R. I do, occasionally, create large prints but, again like you said, 60MP is too much and 40 would absolutely suffice.

Like others have said there are practical benefits, given I have the M11M, to having a body with the same battery and menus (and honestly the in camera charging is a blessing). But none of this will beat the feeling that I have a camera body that I can rely on and feel confident with. That is what I would hope that the M10-R (or, indeed P) would bring.

The ramblings of an old guy here...  if you'll permit me one more post. 

As I said, my question in general is:  "how much is enough?"  While I understand manufacturers' need to innovate and sell the latest and greatest, I'm not sure that the M11 really DOES represent "an upgrade in every way to the M10."   In the early days of digital, there was a revolutionary advance in camera bodies every 18 months.  Now those advances are merely evolutionary rather than revolutionary.   With the sensor resolution on the M11 being three times that of the M10, my question is: who really NEEDS a 60mp sensor?  Or for that matter even a 40mp sensor?    My experience with my 40mp Phase One kit was that 40mp is nice; but even after ten years with it, I find my 24mp M10-P (and actually my Lumix S1 and S5 as well)  is wholly enough for anything I do, and has plenty of "margin."   "Margin" is (and always has been)  a function of shooting to the camera's strengths (and limitations)  rather than "pushing the button and fixing it in post."   

The primary reason I stayed with the 33x44mm Leaf Credo and Phase One cameras were the slightly better 3D quality medium format lenses offer over 35mm.  

To my point about the 1600px long-side photos posted here, I don't see any difference in the ability of any of the M10 and M11 cameras to render images.   To further expand on that, my go-to lens for my M10-P is a 1953 Canon 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar design.  I really don't care for the clinical rendering of much of the new(er) glass, and I'd dare you to tell me what lens any of my work is shot with.  I'm not sure that the 60mp M11 sensor and it's clinical and demanding rendering is as easy to work with as the M10 sensors precisely BECAUSE of it's ability to resolve. 

Having two similar bodies with two battery systems is inconvenient and costly though.  As a practical matter, IMO the biggest reason for you to stay with the M11 variant(s) since you're obviously enamored of your M11 M would be menu, battery, and accessory interchangeability with your M11M if you're happy with it.  That was important to me when I had both an M8 and M9-P for a number of years.   Until this past year, I've always kept all of my bodies, whatever the brand,  using the same batteries.  I finally let that slip away in the past year with the Lumix S1 and S5 for the dimensional differences in the bodies, and now again after acquiring my M10-P.  Now I have three sets of batteries and three sets of chargers and it's a nuisance.   

I don't envy your position or your decision. 

[MaticB]

8 hours ago, hepcat said:

My experience with my 40mp Phase One kit was that 40mp is nice; but even after ten years with it, I find my 24mp M10-P (and actually my Lumix S1 and S5 as well)  is wholly enough for anything I do, and has plenty of "margin."   "Margin" is (and always has been)  a function of shooting to the camera's strengths (and limitations)  rather than "pushing the button and fixing it in post."   

Agree!

[Smudgerer]

I have the M10-R, traded a M10-P for it. I tried the M11 on a long trial but couldn't get used to the shutter and there's "too much menu" for me. I also still own the M10-D which for various reasons including sensor size is perhaps still my favorite digital M. For me 24 mp digital M was and is the sweet spot. In retrospect I should have kept the M10-P because of the quality of it's sensor, a quality that personally I find somewhat missing with the larger mp sensor cameras. But I still have that sensor in the M10-D and even when I print large, A2 & +A1, I am finding that 24mp is plenty big enough for the images I like to make. I am happy enough though with the M10-R it's more than good enough as Al Brown says and demostrates here, but if I find a good M10-P for sale I know I'd be sorely tempted.

[James1975]

2 hours ago, Smudgerer said:

I have the M10-R, traded a M10-P for it. I tried the M11 on a long trial but couldn't get used to the shutter and there's "too much menu" for me. I also still own the M10-D which for various reasons including sensor size is perhaps still my favorite digital M. For me 24 mp digital M was and is the sweet spot. In retrospect I should have kept the M10-P because of the quality of it's sensor, a quality that personally I find somewhat missing with the larger mp sensor cameras. But I still have that sensor in the M10-D and even when I print large, A2 & +A1, I am finding that 24mp is plenty big enough for the images I like to make. I am happy enough though with the M10-R it's more than good enough as Al Brown says and demostrates here, but if I find a good M10-P for sale I know I'd be sorely tempted.

Super helpful. Thank you. I just found an M10-P white limited edition version in mint condition, including the 50/1.4 and I am now sorely tempted. Otherwise I have a brand new black or silver M10-R option for 7.500 euros which seems like a good price. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by James1975

[charlesphoto99]

7 hours ago, James1975 said:

Super helpful. Thank you. I just found an M10-P white limited edition version in mint condition, including the 50/1.4 and I am now sorely tempted. Otherwise I have a brand new black or silver M10-R option for 7.500 euros which seems like a good price. 

Oh good god, not white. If you actually use it, instead of letting it sit in a vitrine on a shelf (like it was intended, lol), it's going to look dirty and gross in no time. The M10-P in silver though is the prettiest of the M's imo. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by charlesphoto99

[James1975]

19 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Oh good god, not white. If you actually use it, instead of letting it sit in a vitrine on a shelf (like it was intended, lol), it's going to look dirty and gross in no time. The M10-P in silver though is the prettiest of the M's imo. 

It is beautiful in white. But, well, yeah. Quite bright. I agree it’s not for use everyday. 

[charlesphoto99]

1 hour ago, James1975 said:

It is beautiful in white. But, well, yeah. Quite bright. I agree it’s not for use everyday. 

Oh, I wouldn't disagree with that - it's why I have two pairs of speakers in white. But I also don't carry them around with me all day. 

[jaapv]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:08 PM, hepcat said:

The ramblings of an old guy here...  if you'll permit me one more post. 

As I said, my question in general is:  "how much is enough?"  While I understand manufacturers' need to innovate and sell the latest and greatest, I'm not sure that the M11 really DOES represent "an upgrade in every way to the M10."   In the early days of digital, there was a revolutionary advance in camera bodies every 18 months.  Now those advances are merely evolutionary rather than revolutionary.   With the sensor resolution on the M11 being three times that of the M10, my question is: who really NEEDS a 60mp sensor?  Or for that matter even a 40mp sensor?    My experience with my 40mp Phase One kit was that 40mp is nice; but even after ten years with it, I find my 24mp M10-P (and actually my Lumix S1 and S5 as well)  is wholly enough for anything I do, and has plenty of "margin."   "Margin" is (and always has been)  a function of shooting to the camera's strengths (and limitations)  rather than "pushing the button and fixing it in post."   

The primary reason I stayed with the 33x44mm Leaf Credo and Phase One cameras were the slightly better 3D quality medium format lenses offer over 35mm.  

To my point about the 1600px long-side photos posted here, I don't see any difference in the ability of any of the M10 and M11 cameras to render images.   To further expand on that, my go-to lens for my M10-P is a 1953 Canon 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar design.  I really don't care for the clinical rendering of much of the new(er) glass, and I'd dare you to tell me what lens any of my work is shot with.  I'm not sure that the 60mp M11 sensor and it's clinical and demanding rendering is as easy to work with as the M10 sensors precisely BECAUSE of it's ability to resolve. 

Having two similar bodies with two battery systems is inconvenient and costly though.  As a practical matter, IMO the biggest reason for you to stay with the M11 variant(s) since you're obviously enamored of your M11 M would be menu, battery, and accessory interchangeability with your M11M if you're happy with it.  That was important to me when I had both an M8 and M9-P for a number of years.   Until this past year, I've always kept all of my bodies, whatever the brand,  using the same batteries.  I finally let that slip away in the past year with the Lumix S1 and S5 for the dimensional differences in the bodies, and now again after acquiring my M10-P.  Now I have three sets of batteries and three sets of chargers and it's a nuisance.   

I don't envy your position or your decision. 

Errmm.. the pixel size is 2480 on the long side…

[Warton]

I bought m11 brand new when it came out and still have it. This year a lightly used m10-r surfaced with great price, I couldn’t resist and still have it now.

so I don’t know if it’s downgrade or whatever, I like both and better part is I don’t have to change lenses.

my rule is keep same number of m bodies as m lenses so I don’t have to change lenses. So far, 3 lenses and 3 bodies.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Warton

[jakontil]

1 hour ago, Warton said:

I bought m11 brand new when it came out and still have it. This year a lightly used m10-r surfaced with great price, I couldn’t resist and still have it now.

so I don’t know if it’s downgrade or whatever, I like both and better part is I don’t have to change lenses.

my rule is keep same number of m bodies as m lenses so I don’t have to change lenses. So far, 3 lenses and 3 bodies.

We are on the same boat here 😂😂😂 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hepcat]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Errmm.. the pixel size is 2480 on the long side…

I meant the generic size of internet photos in general.  If they're downsized considerably from native RAW, they likely lose significant detail anyway.  It doesn't really matter whether the sensor is 12mp or 150mp.

[costa43]

Definitely not a downgrade in image quality. In some aspects an upgrade in low iso noise and corner performance with certain lenses. (Sean Reid)