Film Scanning with the M10?

[blackdot]

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Has anyone setup the M10 to scan 35mm neg film? I’m stuck with one of these Plustek scanners, and everything is a bit soft. I miss my old Nikon and Minolta scanners.

Would the M10 do a better job, and, what is the simplest way to set it up? I was thinking a used Nikon macro and their ES-2 kit. I see there are mount adapters for Nikon to Leica. Any issues or better options?

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[jgeenen]

I have done negative duplications with a Novoflex Auto Bellows with Contax/Yashica mount and a Novoflex CY to M adapter attached to a M9. Thee Novoflex system offered a combi with a dedicated 1:1 macro lens (Noflexar 1:4/65mm as far as I remember) and a light tight bellow between negative holder and lens. That avoided any parallel setup and light leak issues. I did the same with a cheap Vivitar macro lens (90mm) and 1:1 closeup lens in CY mount. Quality was about the same, but it was way harder to get the setup aligned and working. 

My conclusion: Yes, using a Leica for reproduction purposes works well (we did this in the 80s with Leica MD :-)), but it is more important to find a sturdy reproduction stand than a suitable lens.

Johannes

[blackdot]

31 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

I have done negative duplications with a Novoflex Auto Bellows with Contax/Yashica mount and a Novoflex CY to M adapter attached to a M9. Thee Novoflex system offered a combi with a dedicated 1:1 macro lens (Noflexar 1:4/65mm as far as I remember) and a light tight bellow between negative holder and lens. That avoided any parallel setup and light leak issues. I did the same with a cheap Vivitar macro lens (90mm) and 1:1 closeup lens in CY mount. Quality was about the same, but it was way harder to get the setup aligned and working. 

My conclusion: Yes, using a Leica for reproduction purposes works well (we did this in the 80s with Leica MD :-)), but it is more important to find a sturdy reproduction stand than a suitable lens.

Johannes

Thanks for the input. I was interested in the Nikon unit specifically because it eliminates the need for a stand - the negative is held flat in front of the lens. I just don't want to go through all the trouble to find out that the actual resulting image is the same or worse than the Plustek.

[a.noctilux]

My best tool doing copy is BEOON

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the only thing is dust must be removed with software

[a.noctilux]

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284086-leica-m-film-photos-feel-free-to-share-yours/?do=findComment&comment=4404043

this might be one of those

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[jakontil]

2 hours ago, blackdot said:

Has anyone setup the M10 to scan 35mm neg film? I’m stuck with one of these Plustek scanners, and everything is a bit soft. I miss my old Nikon and Minolta scanners.

Would the M10 do a better job, and, what is the simplest way to set it up? I was thinking a used Nikon macro and their ES-2 kit. I see there are mount adapters for Nikon to Leica. Any issues or better options?

I used to use plustek in the past, i thought it was quite good in terms of sharpness? Quite comparable with the other dedicated scanner negative

mine was 8200i but it was so time consuming i considered dslr scanning until i had the chance to try and though sharpness is as good as delivered from plustek, the time saving is quite massive, with caveats though like vignettes and etc, but once setting all set, good to go

As lately i using nikkor 105mm and 60mm still trying to grip which one is more efficient 

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5 minutes ago, jakontil said:

I used to use plustek in the past, i thought it was quite good in terms of sharpness? Quite comparable with the other dedicated scanner negative

mine was 8200i but it was so time consuming i considered dslr scanning until i had the chance to try and though sharpness is as good as delivered from plustek, the time saving is quite massive, with caveats though like vignettes and etc, but once setting all set, good to go

As lately i using nikkor 105mm and 60mm still trying to grip which one is more efficient 

I don't find the Plustek to be too slow, at least not compared to my old Nikon 9000 from years ago. I just scan RAW and use Negative Lab Pro to adjust the reversal and color.

So you think the sharpness and tonal range are about the same between a camera and the Plustek?

[jakontil]

9 minutes ago, blackdot said:

I don't find the Plustek to be too slow, at least not compared to my old Nikon 9000 from years ago. I just scan RAW and use Negative Lab Pro to adjust the reversal and color.

So you think the sharpness and tonal range are about the same between a camera and the Plustek?

At least in terms of sharpness they are about the same imho, not so sure bout tonal range though, since NLP which i always used have been updated a couple of times since and not sure if it makes or improves in some ways

however what i noticed, the grains from plustek seemed more pronounced, not sure if i did it wrong, but both results frm plustek and dslr scanning are favorable compared to my other epson scan

i used the M11 now to scan and set 36 mpx 

[blackdot]

6 minutes ago, jakontil said:

At least in terms of sharpness they are about the same imho, not so sure bout tonal range though, since NLP which i always used have been updated a couple of times since and not sure if it makes or improves in some ways

however what i noticed, the grains from plustek seemed more pronounced, not sure if i did it wrong, but both results frm plustek and dslr scanning are favorable compared to my other epson scan

i used the M11 now to scan and set 36 mpx 

Hmm..if the grains are more pronounced in the Plustek scan, that should indicate that it is sharper.

Edited August 15, 2023 by blackdot

[Stuart Richardson]

Are you scanning only 35mm? The M10 is not really the ideal camera for camera scanning. If you can set it up with a proper macro lens then it will do that ok, but I think the money might be better invested in a higher resolution camera with an electronic shutter...especially one with multishot. If you do not have another camera like this around, then the M10 can be made to work, but rather than going that route, I think you are better off putting the money into a better platform for scanning...something like an A7Rii is around 1000 dollars now...even a used GFX is around 2000. They would do a much better job, and in the case of the GFX in particular, it would provide you with a different and possibly useful compliment to your M10.

In terms of setup, there are some commercially available options. Negative Supply has some of the nicer ones. The most important factors in camera scanning are the quality of the lightsource, the stability and alignment of the support and the film holding/masking. I run a lab and typically use an X5, which is a very high end scanner, but when I have done camera based scanning I have typically taken a light table and placed a piece of glass floating a few inches off the light table (between two boxes, for example). This prevents the scratches or surface texture of the lightbox from being visible. Glass is also easier to keep clean and free of scratches. If you use a piece of museum glass from a framer, it will have very little color cast (plate glass is typically green and will tint the photo). I use a film holder from the X5 to hold the film, but you might be able to use the Plustek holder. Otherwise if the glass is clean, you can place the film on it directly. The important part is to mask off the film of stray light completely. Even better if you have an enclosure around the light table. The room should be as dark as possible. Doing all this will cut way down on flare and give you much better contrast. In terms of aperture, most good macro lenses are sharper at 5.6 or f4 than at f8 or f11. In terms of alignment, I have a versalab parallel darkroom alignment tool that I have used a lot for artwork reproduction and scanning, but it is possible to use other options, even an iphone plumb level. It is not as accurate but better than nothing.

Overall, it is pretty easy to get good results from 35mm, harder for 120, harder still for larger formats. To get all there is out of 35mm, 24mp with perfect focus and a good lens is pretty close to what you need. For 120 it is more like 60+mp, and for larger formats it is hundreds. This is not to say there is hundreds of megapixels of detail visible, only that to maximize the quality and smoothness of the grain reproduction along with all the detail and color information, it takes quite a bit of detail to max out. I would say we are not there yet even with 150mp for 4x5, let alone 8x10. Generally there is about 4000dpi of detail in good film...that is around 320mp for 4x5. Of course, much of that is quite soft, but it is there.

[GFW2-SCUSA]

3 hours ago, blackdot said:

Thanks for the input. I was interested in the Nikon unit specifically because it eliminates the need for a stand - the negative is held flat in front of the lens. I just don't want to go through all the trouble to find out that the actual resulting image is the same or worse than the Plustek.

I have the Nikon ES thing and use it on a Nikon D850 and am happy with the results. The lens I use is the Nikon 60mm macro. It is simple and very easy.  I should say that what I have scanned is fine for my purpose but might not be for those who have higher standards. I scanned mostly family pictures from years ago.  I don't see why the M10 couldn't be used with the proper adaptor. 

 

[newtoleica]

I use an Olympus bellows slide copier with the 80mm Zuiko f4 macro. I had a dedicated Sony A7Rii for it but to be honest the m10-p is just as good (decent Novoflex adaptor) . 

[fisheess]

I am just starting to try. I have considered buying another camera, but the cost would be too much for me. So I am going to use the camera I have and just add a proper lens for the task.

Here is my setup:

Camera: M10-R

Lens: bought a Zeiss S-Planar 60mm F2.8 Macro lens which is capable of 1:1 reproduction for 300 EUR. It arrived today. Then a C/Y to LM adapter so that I can use it.

Stand: I will use a normal tripod

Light and film holder: bought a reproduction light with magnetic film holder while I was in China last week, costs roughly 60 EUR. I only bought the 35mm film holder, but there is also 6x6 and other middle format holders available. This one: 

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I will make some updates once I try.

Edited August 15, 2023 by fisheess

[250swb]

I think an M10 would be fine for 35mm scans. A cheap Nikon adapter (it is only a spacer) and a 60mm micro Nikon with an ES-2 would do the job with a good light source. The only thing is that it still adds up to a fair bit of money and if you want to scan other film formats a copy stand and a Kaiser light pad may be a better option instead of an ES-2.

[PCPix]

On 8/15/2023 at 9:45 AM, jgeenen said:

it is more important to find a sturdy reproduction stand than a suitable lens

Agreed. I'm using Pentax-M Bellows with SMC Pentax-M 50 and 100 macros mounted on an enlarger stand (enlarger removed) with an M10R, so all square and acccurate. The bellows have a beautifully engineered rack and pinion track which is the key to accurate focus (not turning the focus ring on the lens as you may possibly think!).

The other consideration I rarely see mentioned is using flash fired at a translucent perspex as the illumination source, not an LED panel. No liklihood of shake and easy f/11 at 100 ISO - and no need to use a self timer, so a little faster in operation. Anyone remember the Elincrom or Bowens Slide duplicators?

Edited August 17, 2023 by PCPix

[theseahawk]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:45 AM, PCPix said:

Agreed. I'm using Pentax-M Bellows with SMC Pentax-M 50 and 100 macros mounted on an enlarger stand (enlarger removed) with an M10R, so all square and acccurate. The bellows have a beautifully engineered rack and pinion track which is the key to accurate focus (not turning the focus ring on the lens as you may possibly think!).

The other consideration I rarely see mentioned is using flash fired at a translucent perspex as the illumination source, not an LED panel. No liklihood of shake and easy f/11 at 100 ISO - and no need to use a self timer, so a little faster in operation. Anyone remember the Elincrom or Bowens Slide duplicators?

How do you mount the M10-R? Or does the M in the name indicate it’s already a Leica M-mount?

[PCPix]

20 hours ago, theseahawk said:

How do you mount the M10-R

Using a Pentax K to Leica M adapter. The entire bellows/camera is mounted to the stand using the tripod socket on the underside of the bellows. All focus/composition done in live view. 

[algrove]

I use a Korean light box (can't remember the name) which comes with very good metal film holders-35 and 120. Then I put my M11 now on camera stand over the light box and voila-scanned at 60MP. Got an inexpensive 85mm APO Macro lens in M mount for copying using about f11 just in case..

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