Best non-Leica fast 35mm and 50mm recommendations

[spydrxx]

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I understand you will be using a Leica M body, but will it be a film based or digital based body, and will it have only RF for focusing or will it have EVF? It seems to me if you are attempting to show that you can accomplish "good" results without using "pro" gear, you probably shouldn't be using Leica gear or lenses at all, but rather something like a Bessa body, or even an old Barnack body, even some of the Canon or Leotax Barnack style bodies. Of course these will still give one professional results and you can or will have to not use the latest top notch lenses, but still gear which was top notch in its day and was capable of producing excellent results. Think HCB or Vivian Meier. IMHO i you're using a Leica M produced after the M9, you're defeating your stated purpose. Anyway good luck with your project.

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[shirubadanieru]

Voigtlander 35mm f1.4 (if you prefer a character lens, or Ultron f2 (if you prefer sharp clinical lens), Heliar 40mm f2.8 or Skopar 28mm f2.8 for a very compact all-brass construction, 50mm Nokton, 75mm f1.9, 90mm f2.8, and the list goes on…Voigtlander has been killing it recently, releasing in my opinion, lenses way more interesting than Leica in recent years. 

Other great options include the UC-Hexanon 35mm f2, Rollei Sonnar 40mm f2.8, Nikkor 5cm f2, Nikkor 3.5cm f2.5, Canon 50mm f1.4, Ricoh 28mm f2.8, and so on, but most of these are hard to find in good condition these days.

Edited August 14, 2023 by shirubadanieru

[Smudgerer]

Two of them, both Voigtlanders: 35mm Nokton Classic f1.4 ( SM for film, MC for digital ), and Voigtlander 40mm Nokton Classic f1.4................

Actually you could just buy the Nokton 40mm and stand back a bit and you'll get the 35mm POV.............But if I had to choose just one of them I'd go for the 35 1.4 Nokton Classic.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Smudgerer

[Life By Stills]

55 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

IMHO i you're using a Leica M produced after the M9, you're defeating your stated purpose.

Heh, you're probably right @spydrxx LOL.

I guess the M experiment would more be to show you can have fun shooting rangefinders without necessarily busting your bank balance to the tune of an M11 with a £6k Summicron APO or something like that. But I've picked up a 2014 Sony A6000 paired with some cheap Minolta MD lenses for other assignments. To be honest, I'll probably adapt some of the M lenses to the A6000 too to show the images coming out of that combo.

55 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

I understand you will be using a Leica M body, but will it be a film based or digital based body, and will it have only RF for focusing or will it have EVF?

No EVF - just RF. And will probably be just be digital.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Life By Stills

[Life By Stills]

1 hour ago, Multicoated said:

Then I would stay away from Zeiss and Voigtlander because they, especially Voigtlander, are making lenses that are in fact just as good and in some cases better than the Leica counterparts. 

So do you really mean “best” gear? Or do you mean “the most expensive” gear?

If you really mean best, then scrape the bottom of the barrel and challenge yourself. Maybe get some cheapest of the cheap 7artisans or adapt some Fujian lenses. 

I definitely do mean best. Although it'd also be good to show how best does not always mean the most expensive piece of gear. I actually have the TTArtisan 28mm f/5.6 and I actually REALLY love that lens, so definitely up for some cheap Chinese glass. Thinking of picking up maybe a TTArtisan 50mm f/1.4, or the TTArtisan 35mm f/1.4. Although slightly dreading the calibration process if I'm honest lol.

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, Life By Stills said:

 I'll also be pitting then against the Q3 and then seeing if anyone can tell the difference / which one people actually prefer in a blind test.

 

If you’re testing (with proper controls) based on screen shots, not prints, might as well not bother; a camera phone will do.

Jeff

[John Robinson]

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55 minutes ago, Life By Stills said:

TTArtisan 35mm f/1.4. Although slightly dreading the calibration process if I'm honest lol.

I have this lens and find it to be excellent.  No issue with rangefinder focus on either the M2 or M9, did not need to fiddle with the adjustment.

[lct]

I see that that you like the Elmar-M 50/2.8 (another fan here), so i suppose you don't need modern asph lenses absolutely. Given that we like both compact lenses, your choice might then be the same as mine i.e. Nokton 35/1.4 SC v2 and Nokton 50/1.5 SC v2. With no harshness but no softness either, these lenses marry well with Leica lenses from the Mandler era. Only con, to me, is color fringing with the 50/1.5 in case of over-exposure on contrasty subject matters. But what a pleasure to shoot a fast 50 that compact, it is even smaller than the smallest rigid Summicron 50 (v4). BTW "SC" Voigtländer lenses are not only for film, contrary to what i read here and there, but work fine with digital too. Just two snaps on digital below.

M11 + Nokton 35/1.4 SC v2:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-3514-SC-v2/i-cb7xzgQ/0/518e9386/X4/M1000149_sips*-X4.jpg

M11 + Nokton 50/1.5 SC v2:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-CV-5015-SC-v2/i-V42nB6M/0/40f1edfe/X4/M1005986_sips-X4.jpg

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by lct

[Ko.Fe.]

Quote

35mm f1.4 Nokton Classic II SC, and maybe the Voigtlander 50mm f1.5 .

With SC you might get less prominent colors with difference barely visible.  

I have MC version and on smaller than f1.4 it just regular lens. While @f1.4 it is bit too funky. 

As for 50 1.5 VM. I had first M mount version. WO it has noticeable purple fringing. The rest optically was fine. Ergonomics were terrible. Self unscrewing  hood and crude focus ring with sharp edges. 

If you get used to Leica lenses fast tab focusing, I recommend to check VM lenses first by hands before buying.  For slow pace they are fine.

[Smudgerer]

To be honest, and drifting off of subject a little here, pretty much any lens these days that’s made for the M system of camera, be it a sub $500 Chinese made lens to the best that you could possibly afford from Leica, is good enough for most of the work I see displayed here and elsewhere. I am not disparaging the work of others, everything on that level is subjective and criticisms are sometimes blatantly misinformed or unfair…..But for some of the $$$$ sums that are spent on lenses in the quests for “character “ or whatever I do feel that they could be better spent on taking a workshop or two. I’ve been at this game since the year dot and even now try to take at least one workshop every year just to open my mind to other ways of working and looking at this world, as difficult as some of those experiences can be it’s always proven to be more rewarding an investment than yet another lens, or camera body.

[Ouroboros]

I bought the VM 35mm f1.4 nokton sc ii a little over a week ago and the M4-P just followed it out of the shop (Ffordes).  The camera and lens have been inseparable ever since! It’s a really nice little lens.

ZM 50mm f1.5 c-sonnar on the MP, which I interchange with the rather amazing VM 50mm f1.5 Heliar Classic when I feel like seeing the world through a lava lamp.
 

Something for everyone in the realm of fast 35’s and 50’s. ‘Best’ is an utterly bollocks concept.

 

 

 

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[RexGig0]

I believe that the Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 ZM competes well, against Leica, in every way except size. In my opinion, the size is worth its slight inconvenience. Notably, the Distagon is internal-focusing, so, does not extend and retract during focusing, so, when measured, by that spec, its competition should be judged by its most-extended length. A much smaller fast 35mm is the Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.4 II VM, available Multi Coated (MC) and Single Coated. (SC) I own the Zeiss Distagon, and have test-shot a friend’s Nokton II MC.

The only non-Leica fast fifty I have used is my Voigtlander Nokton 50mm f/1.0 Aspheric VM. While this one may seem, from its specs, to be large, it is quite smaller and lighter than the Noctilux f/0.95, and, in images I have seen posted on-line, the $1799 US Nokton competes quite well with the several Noctilux lenses. 

[rramesh]

1. OP, where are you going? 
2. Is this a leisure trip? 
3. What is your intended use of the camera - street, landscape, architecture, portrait? Your profile indicates photojournalism.
4. What's your budget for new gear?

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by rramesh

[dpitt]

Interesting challenge. I like it. As mentioned above, using any digital defeats the purpose a bit. Your M (even my M9) will shine through any lens to some degree. But still your experiment could establish a base line of lens quality that you need to enjoy your efforts of taking a picture.

I would split up this challenge in "new" and "used". The former is the minimum you have to spend on any new lens that still is good enough. It helps in discussions with people who never want to buy used. They rather buy a new mediocre lens every other year than buy an excellent used one and keep that for 10 years. I suppose my minimum would be something like a 'slow' Voigtlander Color Skopar 35mm F2.5 or so. Why limit your search to only fast lenses? In my experience the best IQ for the money ratio is found in the slower lenses. Just add a stop or two in ISO value or go a bit closer and you will not know the difference.

My Leica TL2 came with a TTArtisan 35 mm F1.4 APS-C L mount lens. It is about €89 in the shops now, and at first sight it can produce quite nice results, but when you take the same scene with Voigtlander, Rokkor or Leica vintage lenses, an other dimension appears, literally. Much more 3D rendering, and of course other aspects you never knew you missed in the picture with TTArtisan.

I have no experience with the M version of this lens, but I suppose it will be in line with my experience.

For me the "used" case would be more interesting. You might end up with something like the Leica Elmar F3.5 LTM or even a Leica Summar F2.0 for the dreamy shots. Those can be had in fair condition under €200 if you take your time. They are even better than your Leica Elmarit F2.8 collapsible for traveling.

Edited August 27, 2023 by dpitt

[donalfredo]

Voigtlaender Nokton VM-Mount 50/1.2 absolutely perfect lens -

 

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[ianforber]

On 8/14/2023 at 3:15 PM, Life By Stills said:

I definitely do mean best. Although it'd also be good to show how best does not always mean the most expensive piece of gear. I actually have the TTArtisan 28mm f/5.6 and I actually REALLY love that lens, so definitely up for some cheap Chinese glass. Thinking of picking up maybe a TTArtisan 50mm f/1.4, or the TTArtisan 35mm f/1.4. Although slightly dreading the calibration process if I'm honest lol.

Have you decided yet? I recently bought the CV Nokton 35mm f1.5. I wanted a small lens and went into the shop intending to get the CV 35mm f1.4 but found that I changed the aperture too easily when focusing, hence changing to the 1.5 version. I chose the Type 1 aluminium version as it balanced better on my M11.

I also have the Q2 which has an amazing lens. I can’t really tell the difference between the two but, if pushed, I’d say the Q2 is the sharper of the two but I can’t be sure whether that is a result of dodgy focusing technique on my part. 

[RexGig0]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Well, there is a simple answer to the OP'S @Life By Stills question regarding 35mm: The Best non-Leica fast 35mm lens in M mount by all technical criteria is without any doubt the Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 ZM period. Legend has it it is even better than Leica's 35 FLE.

For the 50mm, no simple answer.

The legend may well be true. While it was only a few images, shot in a camera store, in late June, with each lens, I compared a pre-owned Summilux-M 35mm Version II, their demonstrator Summilux-M 35mm ASPH FLE*, and my Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1,4 ZM. My mission was to see how much I liked the pre-owned Summilux Version II, and that was accomplished, as I decided that I liked the FLE’s images much better than those shot with the Version II. This was the first time I had compared my Distagon to an FLE, and, while the test shots were too rushed for a true test for “best,” this was the first time that I could confirm that the FLE does not win the background contest, as my eyes see it. Both the Distagon and the FLE were very “sharp.” (I did not buy the pre-Aspheric Summilux Version II, which meant that could afford the cost of a Leica Steel Rim “Re-Edition,” a short time later, when Leica USA received some few from Germany.)

This Distagon is so good, that I have two of them. 🙂 I bought the first one pre-owned, in an on-line auction, with a reasonable starting price. I loved the lens’ results, but decided I wanted the silver-toned version. During a “Black Friday” price promotion, I ordered a silver-tone Distagon. Both tested well; apparent equals. I could not bring myself to sell the black one, so, a pair it is. (Having a Steel Rim Re-Edition does not threaten my Distagon lenses; different optics, for different purposes/occasions.)

*The store was Houston Camera Exchange, in Texas, an official Leica dealer, but they move relatively few Leica cameras or lenses, so, do not have a full line of demonstrator lenses and cameras available; only the FLE, (which was not the FLE II,) an M11, and perhaps a Q-series.

[Woolly66]

If you want fast, then look at the Voigtlander Nokton 50mm F1.0 asph. Its pretty large and heavy, but because it's pretty short doesn't feel unbalanced. It is not the sharpest wide open, but sharp enough and gives a pretty unique bokeh. Plus it's less than 1/5 of the price of the Noctilux f.95.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Woolly66
typo

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