Q3 viewfinder blackout is a pain

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Voxen said:

Why is there a blackout delay anyway? If one shoot at 1/1000 I don’t get why the viewfinder would get black half a sec. If someone can explain this to me I’ll go to sleep smarter 🙂

AFAIK, Q cameras have a single data stream from the sensor. It either goes to the EVF or to the image-processing engine. When you press the shutter, the data stream is temporarily diverted from the EVF to the image processing and saving pipeline (blackout).

[Voxen]

Thank you.

[Daniel C.1975]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb clasami:

Yes: Set camera to continuous shooting , 2 FPS.

That’s a really good workaround for the situations where the black out time is an annoyance. And the proof that the issue will for sure be solved via future FW updates

 

[nicci78]

20 hours ago, clasami said:

Set to 2FPS to reduce blackout time. Use M-RAW or S-RAW for smaller files. Motion blur will be less of an issue if you scale down your image and don't look at it at 100% from up close.

Sadly no. Q3 took the picture at full 60MP before scaling it down to 36MP. So motion blur is the same as a 60MP. 
Even if ? Why on earth would I downgrade from 47MP (Q2) to 36MP only with Q3 in binning mode just to get fast enough operations. 
 

My remarks are only from the eye of a Q2 owners.
It seems to me that Q3 slow readout brings several downgrades to previous models. 
Just like the same 60MP sensor makes the Sigma fp L a way worst camera than cheaper Sigma fp with 24MP only. 
There is no free lunch. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by nicci78

[bobtodrick]

4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

There is no free lunch. 

So true.

 

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Sadly no. Q3 took the picture at full 60MP before scaling it down to 36MP. So motion blur is the same as a 60MP. 

At 36MP M-DNG, the motion blur should be similar to when shooting with a 36MP sensor. And lastly, the visibility of the motion blur depends on the final output.

[Le Chef]

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I'm curious to know how the blackout issue can be resolved and how quickly. I noticed that even Jono mentions it in his early review of the Q3.

[AdHox]

Until I noticed this thread, I hadn't really noticed the blackout. Yes the EVF goes black, but it didn't seem inordinately slow for how I am using the Q3. For stuff where I want no blackout - sports, wildlife &c. - I have my A1.

So grabbed my Q3 and took a few shots and now I notice that the blackout is longer than expected ... but then I stop and ask myself, did I notice the blackout when the Q3 was my only camera for six weeks in France and Italy? Obviously it was there, but it had as much impact on my use as the lack of some very important video spec that the Q3 lacks.

[thighslapper]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:40 PM, SrMi said:

AFAIK, Q cameras have a single data stream from the sensor. It either goes to the EVF or to the image-processing engine. When you press the shutter, the data stream is temporarily diverted from the EVF to the image processing and saving pipeline (blackout).

You are shifting 50% more data so the blackout time should be no more than 50% longer than the Q2 ...... and that doesn't account for the alleged improved processor power and faster sensor readout etc etc. Just like slow start up times in previous cameras it's probably down to sloppy coding. 

I'm sure Leica just use previous firmware as a base and just bolt bits on and tinker with it (*). That's not a recipe for efficient code and a potential cause of all sorts of problems. Of course doing the whole lot from scratch is much more time consuming initially, but there does come a point when ditching legacy firmware becomes worthwhile. 

(*) the fact there are a number of issues that have run through multiple iterations of Leicas tends to support this. 

[Le Chef]

One has to wonder whether with the coming-some-time Q3M Leica will have reviewed the coding to make a FW update for Q3 and base for Q3M.

[volatileagent]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:12 AM, nicci78 said:

A quarter a second is not ideal but manageable. 

Half a second is double the time and quite long ! 

Just remember that there is no blackout nor lag at all with M cameras, obviously. 

 

Not entirely true—there is a very similar shutter lag on the M11 when using live view or the Visoflex. 

[bobtodrick]

14 minutes ago, volatileagent said:

Not entirely true—there is a very similar shutter lag on the M11 when using live view or the Visoflex. 

But really…90% of M11 users do not use the camera under these circumstances.

100% of Q3 users have to put up with the blackout…they have no option.

Again, been a Leica user since early ‘80’…but you can still call a spade a spade 😂

Edited September 13, 2023 by bobtodrick

[volatileagent]

On 9/8/2023 at 7:14 AM, Daniel C.1975 said:

Hi, 

 

coming back to the topic. As I still have the Q2 here, I did some comparison. And yes, the black out time of the Q3 is kind of a pain in the butt. 

But I believe I have found the possible reason. 

Overall the Q3 is much more quirky than the Q2. Yesterday I had my first time more intense outing and there was some odd behaviour. For example, when turning on the camera and very shortly after press the play button, the camera shows the picture but with the overlay as if taking a picture (parameter, focus point etc.) and is hanging in this view (not reacting to any button) for a few seconds and than jumping into the normal playback view and behavior. 

 

But that's not the point for this threat: I've tested the Q2 and Q3 against each other to estimate the focus improvements etc. . While doing so I've recognized, that the the audible shutter sound on the Q3, at same shutter-speeds, is much slower compared to the Q2. 

The normal sequence to my knowledge when pressing the shutter button on an ILC with live view should be (simplified):

-> shutter open -> shutter closing -> reset of sensor -> first curtain / second curtain -> open the shutter for live view. 

Possibly the sensor resets nowadays already upfront so the sequence is more like: -> reset of sensor -> first curtain / second curtain -> open the shutter for live view. This would be more logical as you can hear to ticks from the shutter. The first would be first and second curtain and the second one opening the shutter again.  

 

However:

On the Q2, this results in an audible tick-tick sound with a fraction of a second in between the two ticks (at 1/50s), and immediately after the second tick the live view is back. 

On the Q3 there is a big pause in between the two ticks (also at 1/50s). So more like tick - - - tick. But as with the Q2, the live view is immediately back after the second tick. 

 

So my conclusion is, that the camera just has an odd unnecessary pause before opening the shutter again. And this should have nothing to do with readout speeds. It is just wonky programming. 

 

What do you guys think?

 

Another interesting finding: When putting the camera into burst-mode with e.g. 4 frames/second, there is no pause at all after the last picture. Meaning: This problem is solvable. I am just wondering how this could have past all the tests and pre-reviews and testimonials upfront. Because it is the most obvious difference and experience compared to other cameras. 

 

At the moment the Q2 is the more fluent experience. But especially at challenging light-situations, the Q3 IQ is superior. 

Interesting thoughts—I noticed the difference in shutter sound and blackout time between the q2 and q3 immediately. Hoping for more firmware updates soon. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by volatileagent

[Ivan M]

Has anyone TRIED different SD CARDS, faster cards to see if it takes the same amount of time? Just curious. 

 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, bobtodrick said:

But really…90% of M11 users do not use the camera under these circumstances.

Cough, cough ... I speculate that 90% of M11 users do not admit to using the EVF often ;-). Even Oberwerth has a special bag for storing the M11 with EVF mounted.

Also, X1D and X2D have longer blackouts than Q3, and owners can work with it.

Undoubtedly, it would be much better if the blackout were at least as short as in Q2.

[bobtodrick]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Cough, cough ... I speculate that 90% of M11 users do not admit to using the EVF often ;-). Even Oberwerth has a special bag for storing the M11 with EVF mounted.

Also, X1D and X2D have longer blackouts than Q3, and owners can work with it.

Undoubtedly, it would be much better if the blackout were at least as short as in Q2.

Hmmm...I personally know 5 owners of M11's (I sell them and know some of my customers well.  None of them use the EVF on anything but an irregular basis.

Most M users purchase the camera over an SL/SL2 (or other brand) for the rangefinder viewing.

[FusionX.Photo]

There’s just no pleasing some people. Same old moans that I used to see about blackout on Sony forums, unless of course you had the A9 or A1.

 

[charlesphoto99]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:28 AM, SrMi said:

Why? Film cameras had a bigger delay between shots and were and are still considered great street cameras.

Not once when shooting film M's did I have the viewfinder 'black out.' Even if I was still winding (or the motor winder winding) I could follow the action for the next shot. It's one reason the used 020 finder I bought for the M10 mostly sits in its case in a drawer. 

[SAronian]

16 hours ago, Ivan M said:

Has anyone TRIED different SD CARDS, faster cards to see if it takes the same amount of time? Just curious. 

 

I tested with both fast [SanDisk 128GB Extreme PRO V90] and ultra slow [non name micro SD in an adapter] While saving and transfer was almost 3x faster with the new SanDisk Sd card, the blackout time was unaffected.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[Derbyshire Man]

While I agree that long blackout isn't an issue for landscape, still life, shots of shelves in shops, random photo's of people in holiday snaps there are plenty of situations where black out is very much a negative like portrait and street photography; things change in an instant. While anyone with a film camera with a clockwork mechanism had film advance 'blackout' one of the advances of digital photography is the removal of this hindrance, taking two steps backwards is not ideal.

Hopefully it can be fixed as it's certainly enough to put me off!