M10-D price of ownership

[IkarusJohn]

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I bought my M10-D in December 2018 (shortly after release).

Last month, I got an “sd” error message in the viewfinder.  Changed cards etc, no joy; so it went back to Wetzlar.  I got the quote from Leica yesterday - all electronics replaced, and the normal cleaning and CLA, at a little under 50% of the new cost of the camera.  I did pause for thought, then realised that I had no choice but to pay the repair cost.

I appreciate that, after almost 5 years of use, the warranty has long expired, but for an expensive camera in the first place, this is difficult to swallow.  Fundamentally, the heart of this camera has failed.  Now, you might say “bad luck”, but looking back over 13 years of Leica digital ownership and over investment, every digital Leica I have owned (M9, Monochrom, M Edition 60, SL and TL2) has had an electronic failure and gone back to Solms or Wetzlar.

I love my M lenses, and my Leica cameras when they work, but this is dreadful.  The M11 experience, and where it is taking the M system, isn’t encouraging either.

I have already sold down my SL lenses but one (that is likely to go for sale shortly), and I will sell my SL shortly.  I’m now considering selling my refurbished M10-D, refurbished silver Monochrom (I dropped it) and most of my M lenses, keeping only what I want to use on my M-A.  I intend to switch back to the Hassy X system with the X2D, when I can get one (CR Kennedy has been dumped by Hasselblad).

This is disappointing, but my patience is at an end.

[Jeff S]

To make matters worse, I’m sure that some others in a similar situation might have had the work done without charge, despite the lack of warranty.  Haves and have-nots at times, depending how the wind is blowing.  Could be worse; could be Leica NJ Service.

I like the X2D, but wonder if life with Hasselblad (and DJI) would be any better. There is hardly any dealer network in the US, and dwindling by the day.  The repair facility moved 3000 to the west coast, and I have no idea how it was staffed.  More of a purchase/repair crap shoot than Leica, it seems.

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

8 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

To make matters worse, I’m sure that some others in a similar situation might have had the work done without charge, despite the lack of warranty.  Haves and have-nots at times, depending how the wind is blowing.  Could be worse; could be Leica NJ Service.

I like the X2D, but wonder if life with Hasselblad (and DJI) would be any better. There is hardly any dealer network in the US, and dwindling by the day.  The repair facility moved 3000 to the west coast, and I have no idea how it was staffed.  More of a purchase/repair crap shoot than Leica, it seems.

Jeff

Yeah, fair point Jeff.

The logical comparison for me is the SL system v the X2D.  I sold out of both, thinking that the M system was ideal for me - the most relevant focal range, ease of use and I love the whole M gestalt.  But the price of ownership is getting unrealistic.

I used to use the Hasselblad 500 series, and sold that when I bought into the M system.  In between times, I did buy the X1D II and 4 lenses and loved it.  However, the AF drove me nuts, and the manual focusing wasn’t up to it.  After photographing a wedding (with excellent results, but a poor hit rate) I sold out of that too.  Carrying the X1D II, batteries, charger, the 21-45-80-135 (& converter), and filters anywhere was unrealistic.

Both M digital cameras are in Wetzlar for the foreseeable future, and Hasselblad has ditched CR Kennedy as the Hasselblad distributor for NZ and Australia, so I’ll let my blood pressure come down while I enjoy using my M-A.  Leica’s attitude to its digital M system worries me.  If they stuck to the M paradigm (simplicity done well, meeting photographers’ real needs to still photography) and improved their quality, I’d feel more comfortable with them.  Can’t see that bringing their prices down, unfortunately.

I can see more film in my future, with an SWC/M gathering dust on the shelf … iPhones are very good now too!

[Jeff S]

I owned Hasselblad, and 8 or 9 other brands (and multiple formats), back in my film days.  But I ditched film after deciding not to build another (5th) darkroom following another house move.  No looking back.  So now it’s a matter of my determining the best digital options. 

I don’t like various aspects of Leica, but the M remains my main system, now with the M10 Monochrom (primary) and M10-R.  The M11 is a step unnecessarily far for me. And, yes, the prices have surpassed good reason.
 

The SL2 is my complementary camera for things that my M doesn’t do (as an RF-only user). But I’m selling my 90-280 (too infrequent use) and already sold my SL 75 APO, leaving just the 24-90 as a do-all lens.  But it’s a heavy and awkward system compared to my M kit, and not nearly the joy to use.  If Hasselblad had its act together in the US, I would have surely demo-ed the X2D.  With the 3 new lenses (if they weren’t just phantoms), it seems a wonderful kit.  But even if I liked it, the focal length range would overlap my M usage, and my shooting choices would be more complicated. I prefer simplicity in old age and so Hassy may have done me a favor. For now the M system wins out. But as my benign hand tremors worsen, IBIS becomes a more important feature.  At some point, if the M doesn’t incorporate it, I might need to decide between the SL system and whatever other brands are offering, possibly the Hassy X system, if it lasts that long.

Jeff

Edited June 22, 2023 by Jeff S

[IkarusJohn]

Sorry to hear about your tremors, @Jeff S.

I agree on the overlap.  The SL provided a zoom (24-90) and telephoto (180/2.8 APO Elmarit-R), as well as playing nice with my M lenses.  But, as you say, the zoom is unwieldy and I prefer primes, in all honesty.  That has always been the case, right back into my early Nikon days in the 1970s.  I'm not a zoom person.

So, I'm looking at the X2D as my digital colour camera.  I'll start with just the 38/2.5 V lens (30mm 135 field of view).  I like the idea of a single lens for what I'd use the camera for.  Long term, I'd add the V version of the 21 (17mm 135 equivalent), 90 V (71 equivalent) and the 135+1.7 (106mm & 180mm equivalents) if a V version appears.  That would bring me back to 4 lenses, but with a different spacing than my M system.  Full frame equivalent coverage 17-30-71-106-180, compared to my M system 21-28-35-50-75.

Long term at the moment.  Having just been to Wetzlar, my M10-D will effectively be a new camera for which I should get a good price.  I'll list it here, if I go through with this.

Best
John 

PS - sorry, edits overlapped your reply.

Edited June 22, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Sorry to hear about you M10-D. A stunning camera.

I must have been lucky but since the M10 was released I’ve had nothing more serious than a RF calibration. Even the lenses I’ve bought have been perfect. Not the experience I had in the M8/9 days where everything went back. I dropped my 16-35SL but being my fault, that doesn’t count.

As you know I’m a full blown fanboy of the X2D. And I lucked out in that I got both the 38 and 55 on release day. I also picked up a mint used 2nd body a month ago. So I’m set. I also didn’t fall into the trap of selling the XCD originals expecting the new lenses to arrive on time. This is HB after all. So I have a original, and brilliant, 90 to use while I wait.

But the situation we’re in, with no distributor is an issue. *If* Hasselblad go down the Leica route and open a set of specialist stores (as is apparently happening via the DJI concept stores that are independently run), than all is golden. But that’s not a reality yet. Your Leica may need service but at least service is available. You also get a solid warranty on all the work that’s just been done. A year if I’m not mistaken. Currently I have no idea what to do if something HB goes down. I’m sure CRK would help (they have to as I bought everything direct from them) but it looks like it’ll be a PITA for a bit. And I have no idea if I’ll get my 90V. At all. CRK say that HB will honour current orders but I reckon it’ll be 50/50 whether my first in line order is cancelled or not.

You like the camera. But you’re a bit down (justifiably) at having to dump a ton of cash that you probably wish you hadn’t. But you’ll have the camera back soon and be shooting again. Hopefully the enjoyment of having a very rare and fun camera will make the pain fade in time. I’d not rush into a decision.

If you’re ever in Sydney give me a shout and I’ll bring the X2D and new lenses down for a day….

Gordon

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, I'm looking at the X2D as my digital colour camera.  I'll start with just the 38/2.5 V lens (30mm 135 field of view).  I like the idea of a single lens for what I'd use the camera for.  

My philosophy with a hypothetical X2D would be similar, except with the  55 V, as 43mm equivalent would nicely fit my 35/50 shooting style. Most of my work, though, would likely consist of B&W conversions, so the Monochrom overlap would either cause conflict or prompt a decision on which system to build around.  
 

I neglected to say that my digital M experience, since 2009 with the M8.2,  has been without major issue. So there’s that.  But not being an early adopter might have helped. 
 

Jeff

[pgh]

I feel your pain. Every digital Leica I've owned has come out of the box with problems - nothing so significant as yours, and most covered by warranty, but I've gone a long time cumulatively without using cameras I paid more money for than any car I've ever owned.

That said, I hate to tell you - Leica customer service and overall reliability looks good compared to Hasselblad. The current digital Hasselblads are fantastic in general, but if there are issues it is quite frustrating. The seemingly slim staff they have is helpful, but you get the sense a lot of them are learning on the go. Things are not quick, and twice I've had errors on my 907x that got responses of "oh that's weird, we haven't seen that, um I guess you've got to send it in" - not a great feeling - and then turnaround is no quicker than Leica. 

The sad fact of the matter is that if ultimate reliability is important you've got to sacrifice some of the - whatever you want to call it - uniqueness that you get with these brands and just go with canon, nikon, or sony - or to a lesser extent fuji - where problems are much less consistent and if they do come up are addressed much more quickly. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by pgh

[gotium]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I bought my M10-D in December 2018 (shortly after release).

Last month, I got an “sd” error message in the viewfinder.  Changed cards etc, no joy; so it went back to Wetzlar.  I got the quote from Leica yesterday - all electronics replaced, and the normal cleaning and CLA, at a little under 50% of the new cost of the camera.  

Wow. It is this exactly that gives me pause when I buy any Leica product now. I've had some very difficult experiences with their support myself and am always nervous with such expensive gear that something like this might happen. It makes it hard to have confidence. 

Food for thought indeed. 

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, gotium said:

Wow. It is this exactly that gives me pause when I buy any Leica product now. I've had some very difficult experiences with their support myself and am always nervous with such expensive gear that something like this might happen. It makes it hard to have confidence. 

Food for thought indeed. 

On the plus side, I have always had a great relationship with Leica Customer Service.  My attitude has always been that things go wrong.  That’s life.  It’s how you deal with things when they go wrong that matters.  Leica has always treated me well, but I have to be honest and point out that a lot has gone wrong, even for someone as patient as me; and it’s cost a bundle.

To balance that, I totally get their two strap-lines - “Camera for life” and “Das Wesentliche”.  I hate waste, which is why I keep repairing stuff that I’m told to throw any and buy new.  I love the distillation of the essentials of photography - despite their internal electronic workings, the M9 and M10 cameras belied their wires and circuitry and presented what film lovers were used to - manual focus lenses with aperture rings, shutter dials where they should be and they looked like the real thing.

I guess that’s why I didn’t like the M(240) and I don’t like the direction the M11 seems to be heading.  I hate to concede I’m just getting old - I’ a photographer, and I don’t like unnecessary things that get in the way of taking photos.  Having had the X1D II, Hasselblad also understands this.  But then, I might be diving into a more troublesome pool.

Thankfully I don’t need to make any immediate decisions.  Thank you all for your contributions, and Gordon and Paul for your wise words.

[chasdfg]

I myself am slowly getting out of Leica. I've listed for sale/sold 5 out of my 8 lenses. The ones I'm keeping I can't bear to sell (yet). I don't shoot enough to justify all that money locked in Leica gear. My M11 has had some minor inconsistent 6bit reader issue which bothers me every time it comes up. I'm concerned about high costs of repair Leica gear which I never factored into the already high price of the camera/lenses. I'm tired of inconsistent responses from Leica where some people her service done for free or at great discounts and others have to pay hefty sums to get gear fixed. I'm also tired of inconsistent QC where some people have no issues at all whilst I have had experiences where my gear goes back and forth to Leica cause of wrong calibration and lint on aperture blades after a CLA (among other things), and if you raise an issue they almost gaslight you (or they actually do) and tell you its normal and they can't do anything more about it. It seems to depend on who you are and who you know to get the service you deserve.

For the money spent, it is too much heartache, worry and uncertainty for me to bother about it all. The community is full of gearheads, collectors and snobs (I don't mean to generalise - this statement is particularly targeted at where I'm located...also, the second hand market where I'm at is full of flippers). I'm just tired of it all.

I still enjoy the rangefinder experience and form factor so i did toy with "downgrading" to an M10 but i appreciate what the M11 has that none of the other digital Ms can offer (high res, lighter body, usbc charging, etc.). I can see it being my only camera for the next decade...if it holds up. So my solution is to sell whatever lenses I can bear to sell and keep my kit nimble. Maybe one day I'll get out of Leica entirely.

[Jon Warwick]

13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I have already sold down my SL lenses but one (that is likely to go for sale shortly), 

You did well to sell the SL lenses, anecdotally I’m struggling to sell my one via a well-known dealer (despite a keen price), and keep seeing a lot of them sitting on dealers’ shelves. I’m surprised, given their fab image quality, but maybe the various promotions over the years makes the used pricing  more complex?

fwiw - I don’t have an X2D, rather a GFX100S. I would find it hard to revert now to full frame color having experienced its image quality. Its weight with the GF 50mm is 2/3rds that of the SL and SL APO prime!. I held an X2D recently, and thought it really really lovely in terms of ergonomics, build quality etc. A real notch up from the Fuji imho.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[sebben]

In terms of selling, recently I have been getting the best prices from Leica directly. The used market doesn't seem to have many buyers if you are not in the US.

 

I would keep the refurbished M10D though, it is now in a good shape to work for many years and it is one of a kind. 

[Smudgerer]

Hmmm....My M10-D has in it's life been back to Leica / Wetzlar five times, the fifth time was out of it's warranty period but they still honoured the warranty anyway maybe because my D was such a frequent visitor that it had it's own bench space. The problems were all electronics related, and underlined for me the fragility of Leica's depth of experience with all things digital, firmware included, as compared to other camera manufacturers. It is easily my favourite digital Leica but it has indeed had a troubled upbringing, part of which is the fact that Leica put the M10-D out there then promptly forgot about it, it has had as far as I can recall no meaningful firmware upgrade at all despite many owners begging for changes that would have improved it's functionality and perhaps it's reliability too.

I like my Leica cameras, the ones I have, but I decided a while back the the M10's were the last of their digital line that I would buy / trade-up to, the M11 may well be a great step for some but it and the way Leica is going with the M line is not for me, too much of a reliance on more and more electrons and Leica's record with all of that hasn't been too good as far as my experiences are concerned. Every one of my digital M's has been back to Wetzlar more than once, the M10-D still holds that dubious record though.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Smudgerer

[pgh]

Nothing's ever perfect, but after a long time with different cameras and finding myself generally wanting less, the M10 series in general and the M10-D in particular seems about as close as Leica's ever gotten - at least when it comes to enjoyment shooting digitally. The sensor is the biggest flaw in that series but even then we're talking like a 7.5 out of 10 (for my purposes) and something that's generally workable and usually more than enough. Not that I've ever had the good fortune to hold the D, but I do own two other M10 models and would get rid of any other creative tool - including film cameras, other digitals, printers, my computers even - before those two with my 35/50 summis. 

So yea, I still shoot and appreciate my M10s. For awhile, I was a bit unsatisfied with the resolution on the original M10 (which went to NJ/Wetzlar 3 times its first year and none since) because everything else I had then was 36-42 mp, and I do appreciate the extra resolution from my M10M - which is my main driver these days. That said, my perfect Leica would be basically an M10-D that is bulletproof inside and out - and a sensor that had the latitude - but not even necessarily the resolution of the M10-R. My only real gripe about the M10 series is the latitude of the 24 mp sensor (so this doesn't include the M and the R). Even just this week I am making prints of images from 5 years ago shot with my M10 and my Sony A7RII - which I've long sold but had a sensor I considered superior. In terms of resolution, I can't really tell in the prints, it doesn't matter - and the Leica lenses do somehow make up some if not in actual detail resolved than in the overall rendering. Can't explain it, but at least up to 36" I don't mind. In terms of color, the M10 is more preferable to me - in terms of highlight retention the frustration remains but is only an issue in a select few pictures. 

Anyways, at this point in time, I'm still making a lot of my favorite pictures with my M10 and if I had an M10D I would pay to repair it and give it a second life because I also dislike waste - and, importantly, if it came out today it would still be a great and unique camera (with frustratingly limited latitude, yes) and repair is half price. 5 years isn't great, but it's not the worst life for electronic equipment either. I'd be pissed, but ... it's too special. I think the only thing that would tempt me in an M11 variant would be an M11D with a lower res native sensor, none of this pixel binning stuff - since it doesn't actually make shooting handheld any easier. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by pgh

[charlesphoto99]

@Jon Warwick Yeah, it’s the gaslighting that sucks the most. They tried this with me when I got a brand new black paint M10-R with a mis-calibrated rf out of the box. Having shot M’s for thirty years it was insulting. My M10M should go back for a small issue (my fault, compounded on the original out of the box fault) but I’m almost afraid to and just keep shooting it as is. Plus i don’t want to be without for three months. 

[TomB_tx]

Seems to me that Leica’s target market now is not “working photographers” but wealthy casual users, where breakdowns are just an inconvenience, and who likely can afford a spare when needed. Back in the 1960s when I started with Leica there were still a lot of pros using them. Now there are not enough pro Leica users to justify a business focus on them.

[52K]

Funny how even Leica cameras as they get old become a liability in terms of risk. It’s not so much that they can go wrong, after all, anything can fail, it’s the fact that you know you’ll be without it for around 4 months and get a very hefty bill.

I’ve owned lots of M cameras, including the M10-D, most of which (including the M10-D) have been 100% reliable. I was however without my brand new M11 for 4 months while it went back to the mothership for replacement of its electronic internals. I also had Visoflex failure from the outset, followed by another with a lump of swarf inside it. Now on my 3rd visoflex, stability is again restored. 
 

You’re entirely right about the M-A however. No electronics and no worries. Of all my cameras, my M-A is my most cherished, and the one that likely outlast all of the others. It’ll be working long after my time, I’m sure.
 

I don’t think any of the modern digital Leicas are built to stand the test of time like the film kit. Even the new M6 re-issue has had pressure plate issues which begs the question of Leica cutting corners and quality control in favour of profit.

 

I looked at the Hasselblad kit, beautifully made but way too many quirks for my liking and that leaf shutter in the new lenses just sounds like it’s broken. The colour and resolution however is something else but the SL is a far more useful workhorse for me. 

[pgh]

2 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Seems to me that Leica’s target market now is not “working photographers” but wealthy casual users, where breakdowns are just an inconvenience, and who likely can afford a spare when needed. Back in the 1960s when I started with Leica there were still a lot of pros using them. Now there are not enough pro Leica users to justify a business focus on them.

This has been the clear case for years. The gold bodies, watches, reporter editions and every other luxury marketing schtick speak loudly. I doubt they have the capacity to manufacture in a volume where any other strategy is feasible, though. My peer group is one that fills the pages and webpages of news publications that many of us read, and I only know a very few who use Leicas - the primary reasons are financial combined with reliable lack of professional support - well, and for many it's just not the best tool for the job either. Even a photojournalist who is doing comparably pretty well these days - unless doing well also outside of work for some reason - will have a very hard time rationally justifying a Leica as a work expense, and even then they're usually reserved for "personal" work.

That said, my guess is that if Leica were able to make something more robust and more affordable the pro market segment would actually respond. I know plenty of people who would love to have one if it weren't such an outlay and a pain.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[gotium]

19 hours ago, chasdfg said:

I myself am slowly getting out of Leica. I've listed for sale/sold 5 out of my 8 lenses. The ones I'm keeping I can't bear to sell (yet). I don't shoot enough to justify all that money locked in Leica gear. My M11 has had some minor inconsistent 6bit reader issue which bothers me every time it comes up. I'm concerned about high costs of repair Leica gear which I never factored into the already high price of the camera/lenses. I'm tired of inconsistent responses from Leica where some people her service done for free or at great discounts and others have to pay hefty sums to get gear fixed. I'm also tired of inconsistent QC where some people have no issues at all whilst I have had experiences where my gear goes back and forth to Leica cause of wrong calibration and lint on aperture blades after a CLA (among other things), and if you raise an issue they almost gaslight you (or they actually do) and tell you its normal and they can't do anything more about it. It seems to depend on who you are and who you know to get the service you deserve.

For the money spent, it is too much heartache, worry and uncertainty for me to bother about it all. The community is full of gearheads, collectors and snobs (I don't mean to generalise - this statement is particularly targeted at where I'm located...also, the second hand market where I'm at is full of flippers). I'm just tired of it all.

I still enjoy the rangefinder experience and form factor so i did toy with "downgrading" to an M10 but i appreciate what the M11 has that none of the other digital Ms can offer (high res, lighter body, usbc charging, etc.). I can see it being my only camera for the next decade...if it holds up. So my solution is to sell whatever lenses I can bear to sell and keep my kit nimble. Maybe one day I'll get out of Leica entirely.

I could have written this myself, only not as well. Exactly my feelings, 100%, including the gaslighting, which I’ve experienced repeatedly without clearly recognizing it at the time.

Thank you for putting words to my thoughts.