M11 Motion blur is driving me crazy(!)

[lct]

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The OP's photo has been shot at f/1.4 with a 50/1.4 lens. Not sure what any 50/2 lens could do to improve it.

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[CDodkin]

1 hour ago, lct said:

The OP's photo has been shot at f/1.4 with a 50/1.4 lens. Not sure what any 50/2 lens could do to improve it.

Experience Vs Opinion

Experience wins out

And the lens being discussed is 35mm, not 50mm FWIW

Edited May 18, 2023 by CDodkin

[Hanno]

5 hours ago, CDodkin said:

Experience Vs Opinion

Experience wins out

Thanks @CDodkin for your various posts explaining that a 35mm f/2 APO lens would perform better in the corners etc. than the OP’s 35mm f/1.4 old lens at wide aperture.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Hanno

[lct]

7 hours ago, CDodkin said:

Experience Vs Opinion

Experience wins out

And the lens being discussed is 35mm, not 50mm FWIW

Sorry for the typo but what is true for 50 is true for 35 too. Little point to compare f/1.4 to f/2 lenses, especially at full aperture.

[CDodkin]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Sorry for the typo but what is true for 50 is true for 35 too. Little point to compare f/1.4 to f/2 lenses, especially at full aperture.

You appear to have entirely missed the point of the discussion

[CDodkin]

5 hours ago, Hanno said:

Thanks @CDodkin for your various posts explaining that a 35mm f/2 APO lens would perform better in the corners etc. than the OP’s 35mm f/1.4 old lens at wide aperture.

ditto above reply to lct

[Hanno]

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3 hours ago, lct said:

Sorry for the typo but what is true for 50 is true for 35 too. Little point to compare f/1.4 to f/2 lenses, especially at full aperture.

And also if the f/2 is APO and the f/1.4 is not.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Hanno

[SoarFM]

After 8 pages of some very good comments…

A properly adjusted range finder is insanely accurate and much quicker than an EVF in most situations. The simplest adjustment is done with a 2mm hex wrench when your rangefinder patches are not lining up an item focused at infinity.  A cellphone tower or tall building are ideal for making this adjustment. Airplane travel has knocked my rangefinder out of calibration more than once, easily adjusted at destination. I am always a little bit upset that the vibration of a 737 does this, but it does.  If your rangefinder is off at infinity, it is off at 2 meters and needs to be corrected or you will drive yourself mad with disappointment.  My 50mm Summilux ASPH is my reference lens for this adjustment. If it is focusing properly, all my lenses are.

The original posters images defies any explanation other than a lens problem if this problem cannot be duplicated with a different lens, even of different focal length.

The apparent depth of field on a high resolution sensor is narrower than with the same lens shot on a lower resolution sensor. Same with “camera shake.”

Zone focusing with a high resolution camera is often disappointing for the obvious differences in focus visible throught the “zone of focus.” I can zone focus quite satisfactorally  with my M6 film camera, whereas the same lens on my M11 is going to yield unsatisfactory zone focusing.

The good news is that there is little need to shoot a 1/30 second with a modern high resolution M because the high ISO performance is so good. I know many people lament the lack of IBIS, but IBIS buys you, maybe, 3 stops despite claims of manufacturers of 8 stops. And it also adds complexity and failure points. IBIS will buy you some slower shutter speeds, but that is useful only in edge use situations. Someday an M will have it, and a whole host of new complaints will arise from that. And if you really need to shoot your M lenses with IBIS, there are always the SL series cameras that, when coupled with an M lens are quite compact still, even if not as small and sweet as an M.

 

 

[hdmesa]

21 hours ago, CDodkin said:

Alan - how does the VM 50 APO stack up against the Summilux 50mm for example - any data?

I know you're asking Alan, but while we wait:

The CV 50 APO is by far a superior landscape lens or for anything requiring the highest resolving power, microcontrast, and sharpness. Color-wise, they are both great. But for portraits, the CV 50 APO is a tricky lens. To compare it against a common denominator I know you're familiar with, the CV 50 APO renders more like the GF 120 (macro-ish sharpness, and you better have nice diffused lighting for portraits, etc.) and the 50 Lux is more like the GF 80 (not optically perfect, has a look more conducive to environmental portraits, but can double for landscape stopped down when needed).

I don't have side-by-side examples like you used to provide for GF lenses, though, just an anecdotal opinion having used both.

[TheEyesHaveIt]

7 hours ago, SoarFM said:

After 8 pages of some very good comments…

A properly adjusted range finder is insanely accurate and much quicker than an EVF in most situations. The simplest adjustment is done with a 2mm hex wrench when your rangefinder patches are not lining up an item focused at infinity.  A cellphone tower or tall building are ideal for making this adjustment. Airplane travel has knocked my rangefinder out of calibration more than once, easily adjusted at destination. I am always a little bit upset that the vibration of a 737 does this, but it does.  If your rangefinder is off at infinity, it is off at 2 meters and needs to be corrected or you will drive yourself mad with disappointment.  My 50mm Summilux ASPH is my reference lens for this adjustment. If it is focusing properly, all my lenses are.

The original posters images defies any explanation other than a lens problem if this problem cannot be duplicated with a different lens, even of different focal length.

The apparent depth of field on a high resolution sensor is narrower than with the same lens shot on a lower resolution sensor. Same with “camera shake.”

Zone focusing with a high resolution camera is often disappointing for the obvious differences in focus visible throught the “zone of focus.” I can zone focus quite satisfactorally  with my M6 film camera, whereas the same lens on my M11 is going to yield unsatisfactory zone focusing.

The good news is that there is little need to shoot a 1/30 second with a modern high resolution M because the high ISO performance is so good. I know many people lament the lack of IBIS, but IBIS buys you, maybe, 3 stops despite claims of manufacturers of 8 stops. And it also adds complexity and failure points. IBIS will buy you some slower shutter speeds, but that is useful only in edge use situations. Someday an M will have it, and a whole host of new complaints will arise from that. And if you really need to shoot your M lenses with IBIS, there are always the SL series cameras that, when coupled with an M lens are quite compact still, even if not as small and sweet as an M.

 

 

Is there a good article or tutorial on how to do this? Taking a hex wrench to my $10k camera makes me nervous...

[Tailwagger]

8 hours ago, SoarFM said:

IBIS buys you, maybe, 3 stops despite claims of manufacturers of 8 stops.

While I'd be the first to agree that IBIS has its limitations, it's not quite this simple in my experience.  Beyond one's own technique, the effectiveness is greatly influenced by the distance to the focus point.  I've done night shooting with the 75mm at medium focus distances and gotten tack sharp results with exposures over 2, often pushing close to 3, seconds. OTOH, I've shot low light indoors with the 35mm with the subject at a couple of feet and not managed anything worthwhile under 1/30".  So, I'd posit that both you and the manufacturers are telling the truth. It all depends on circumstances.

[Alan Friedman]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I know you're asking Alan, but while we wait:

The CV 50 APO is by far a superior landscape lens or for anything requiring the highest resolving power, microcontrast, and sharpness. Color-wise, they are both great. But for portraits, the CV 50 APO is a tricky lens. To compare it against a common denominator I know you're familiar with, the CV 50 APO renders more like the GF 120 (macro-ish sharpness, and you better have nice diffused lighting for portraits, etc.) and the 50 Lux is more like the GF 80 (not optically perfect, has a look more conducive to environmental portraits, but can double for landscape stopped down when needed).

I don't have side-by-side examples like you used to provide for GF lenses, though, just an anecdotal opinion having used both.

I think this is a very good summary of two very different lenses. I carry both lenses with me when I pack a small bag. I'm sorry I don't have a field test comparing the two on the same subject though it would be an interesting exercise and write up for a different thread.

[CDodkin]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I know you're asking Alan, but while we wait:

The CV 50 APO is by far a superior landscape lens or for anything requiring the highest resolving power, microcontrast, and sharpness. Color-wise, they are both great. But for portraits, the CV 50 APO is a tricky lens. To compare it against a common denominator I know you're familiar with, the CV 50 APO renders more like the GF 120 (macro-ish sharpness, and you better have nice diffused lighting for portraits, etc.) and the 50 Lux is more like the GF 80 (not optically perfect, has a look more conducive to environmental portraits, but can double for landscape stopped down when needed).

I don't have side-by-side examples like you used to provide for GF lenses, though, just an anecdotal opinion having used both.

Appreciate the comparison - that puts it nicely in perspective for me

[CDodkin]

11 minutes ago, Alan Friedman said:

I think this is a very good summary of two very different lenses. I carry both lenses with me when I pack a small bag. I'm sorry I don't have a field test comparing the two on the same subject though it would be an interesting exercise and write up for a different thread.

I may put the CV 50 on the list, but at this time I'm finding the Summilux 50mm is performing within expectations, so it's not an urgent need to swap.

The 35mm swap was however a higher priority, with the Summiluix on my M11 giving me plenty to be concerned about, and the Voigtlander fixing that issue completely.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, CDodkin said:

Appreciate the comparison - that puts it nicely in perspective for me

In reading above that you have the CV 35 APO, the CV 50 APO is virtually identical except for the change in field of view. As a bonus, the compression of 50mm also improves the bokeh you're already seeing with the CV 35 APO.

[SoarFM]

5 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Is there a good article or tutorial on how to do this? Taking a hex wrench to my $10k camera makes me nervous...

This guy's demonstration on Youtube is pretty good. Pay attention to his comments between 4:30 and 5:00 regarding rotating inserted Allen/hex  wrench towards camera left.

 

It really is quite easy, but if at anytime you're uncomfortable--stop. 

[Nitnaros]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:59 PM, SoarFM said:

After 8 pages of some very good comments…

A properly adjusted range finder is insanely accurate and much quicker than an EVF in most situations. The simplest adjustment is done with a 2mm hex wrench when your rangefinder patches are not lining up an item focused at infinity.  A cellphone tower or tall building are ideal for making this adjustment. Airplane travel has knocked my rangefinder out of calibration more than once, easily adjusted at destination. I am always a little bit upset that the vibration of a 737 does this, but it does.  If your rangefinder is off at infinity, it is off at 2 meters and needs to be corrected or you will drive yourself mad with disappointment.  My 50mm Summilux ASPH is my reference lens for this adjustment. If it is focusing properly, all my lenses are.

The original posters images defies any explanation other than a lens problem if this problem cannot be duplicated with a different lens, even of different focal length.

The apparent depth of field on a high resolution sensor is narrower than with the same lens shot on a lower resolution sensor. Same with “camera shake.”

Zone focusing with a high resolution camera is often disappointing for the obvious differences in focus visible throught the “zone of focus.” I can zone focus quite satisfactorally  with my M6 film camera, whereas the same lens on my M11 is going to yield unsatisfactory zone focusing.

The good news is that there is little need to shoot a 1/30 second with a modern high resolution M because the high ISO performance is so good. I know many people lament the lack of IBIS, but IBIS buys you, maybe, 3 stops despite claims of manufacturers of 8 stops. And it also adds complexity and failure points. IBIS will buy you some slower shutter speeds, but that is useful only in edge use situations. Someday an M will have it, and a whole host of new complaints will arise from that. And if you really need to shoot your M lenses with IBIS, there are always the SL series cameras that, when coupled with an M lens are quite compact still, even if not as small and sweet as an M.

 

 

My experience with IBIS comes from the Fuji GFX series: 

I had the GFX 50S and getting sharp images was quite doable with attention to shutter speed. (But then the 50S has accurate  auto-focus) 

trying out the GFX 100 and what a difference IBIS makes blew me away. I can take pictures easily at 1/10 of a second and pixel peep at 100 megapixel files.

since Leica moved the M’s into high resolution sensor field > 24 mp, IBIS is the one thing critically missing

M’s have always been famous for their ability to support slow shutter speeds. So let’s bring that back !

[lct]

4 hours ago, Nitnaros said:

since Leica moved the M’s into high resolution sensor field > 24 mp, IBIS is the one thing critically missing

+1. Leica said they could not implement IBIS in the M11 for lack of room but it should come in the M12 i guess.

Edited May 20, 2023 by lct

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[thighslapper]

On 5/20/2023 at 11:16 AM, lct said:

+1. Leica said they could not implement IBIS in the M11 for lack of room but it should come in the M12 i guess.

If Leica stubbornly stick to the M series external dimensions and want to include the RF mechanism and a decent sized battery it will be a tall order squeezing IBIS into the body. 

[lct]

My A7r2 mod has IBIS and is not much bigger than my A7s here

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