John Smith Posted May 21, 2023 Share #161 Posted May 21, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 minutes ago, lct said: My A7r2 mod has IBIS and is not much bigger than my A7s here Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Isn't your Sony much thicker than the M? Plus it has a grip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 21, 2023 Posted May 21, 2023 Hi John Smith, Take a look here M11 Motion blur is driving me crazy(!). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted May 21, 2023 Share #162 Posted May 21, 2023 Not counting handgrips, camera mounts and LCDs, the Sony is slightly thinner. Also the M12 would not have a mechanical shutter i guess so all hope is not lost... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 21, 2023 Share #163 Posted May 21, 2023 Just consider how much space moving a battery into a grip creates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Smith Posted May 21, 2023 Share #164 Posted May 21, 2023 5 hours ago, lct said: Not counting handgrips, camera mounts and LCDs, the Sony is slightly thinner. Also the M12 would not have a mechanical shutter i guess so all hope is not lost... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/376845-m11-motion-blur-is-driving-me-crazy/?do=findComment&comment=4776860'>More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted May 22, 2023 Share #165 Posted May 22, 2023 14 hours ago, lct said: My A7r2 mod has IBIS and is not much bigger than my A7s here Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Yes, but your Sony has a much smaller flange distance. The distance from lens mount to sensor plane is fixed, unless you want to completely redo the M mount and 60 years of lenses. The only way possible while keeping lens compatibility and the same depth body would be to have a protruding lens mount on the camera. I’m not sure how people would react to a lens mount that protrudes and extra 5-10mm from the front of the camera. Personally I’d be OK with that. Not sure how that would affect the RF design and engineering though. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 22, 2023 Share #166 Posted May 22, 2023 As far as IBIS is concerned, it is not the lens or any part of it but the sensor itself which moves AFAIK. At least, it is the way it works with M lenses on my Sony A7r2 mod. Then with thin bodies like the Sony, the lens stands on a protruding mount and/or an adapter to comply with the registration distance required. The same on M camera would imply the use of a longer arm for the roller cam i guess but i’m no techie. BTW instead of a protruding mount i would prefer a close focus adapter like the VME of my Sony. Would allow to reduce the MFD of all M lenses by about 0.2m and to focus all the way from this reduced MFD to infinity thanks to the helicoid of the adapter. Just an idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted May 22, 2023 Share #167 Posted May 22, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 hours ago, lct said: As far as IBIS is concerned, it is not the lens or any part of it but the sensor itself which moves AFAIK. At least, it is the way it works with M lenses on my Sony A7r2 mod. Then with thin bodies like the Sony, the lens stands on a protruding mount and/or an adapter to comply with the registration distance required. The same on M camera would imply the use of a longer arm for the roller cam i guess but i’m no techie. BTW instead of a protruding mount i would prefer a close focus adapter like the VME of my Sony. Would allow to reduce the MFD of all M lenses by about 0.2m and to focus all the way from this reduced MFD to infinity thanks to the helicoid of the adapter. Just an idea. reminds me of the Transformer movie! I am all for clever design, but the M11 does what a want! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 22, 2023 Share #168 Posted May 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Photoworks said: reminds me of the Transformer movie! I am all for clever design, but the M11 does what a want! As much as i like it, it does not for me. So far the M11 is the only M camera i cannot use handheld at slow shutter speeds. First time it happens to me since the M3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdk Posted May 22, 2023 Share #169 Posted May 22, 2023 Another thing that might be helpful for handheld photography with the M11 is an accessory grip. I use the Really Right Stuff grip bracket, which is machined out coffee a single piece of aluminum alloy. A more ergonomic grip may reduce camera shake blurring. The RRS grip provides a much firmer way to hold the camera than the M11 alone has, plus it has Arca Swiss type dovetails on the bottom and left side for easy mounting to tripods or monopods with an Arca Swiss compatible clamp. I sometimes use a monopod for support, which adds stability while being less fiddly and fussy than a tripod for landscape photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted May 22, 2023 Share #170 Posted May 22, 2023 I’ve sold the camera and all of a sudden the M11 motion blur issue is gone... It worked very well. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgh Posted May 22, 2023 Share #171 Posted May 22, 2023 8 hours ago, sdk said: Another thing that might be helpful for handheld photography with the M11 is an accessory grip. I use the Really Right Stuff grip bracket, which is machined out coffee a single piece of aluminum alloy. A more ergonomic grip may reduce camera shake blurring. The RRS grip provides a much firmer way to hold the camera than the M11 alone has, plus it has Arca Swiss type dovetails on the bottom and left side for easy mounting to tripods or monopods with an Arca Swiss compatible clamp. I sometimes use a monopod for support, which adds stability while being less fiddly and fussy than a tripod for landscape photography. This all makes perfect sense, and yet (for me) totally defeats the purpose of using an M. If I can't use it well as is (as I always have - sans any accoutremonts), it might as well be something else - but I have the SL2 for that - which is really barely bigger than an M, and basically the same size as an M with accessories. I don't have much issue with my M10M - but I think it tops out around there - it is a little less flexible than my M10, for obvious reasons. Then again, the extra stops of usable ISO quite help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 23, 2023 Share #172 Posted May 23, 2023 8 hours ago, pgh said: This all makes perfect sense, and yet (for me) totally defeats the purpose of using an M. If I can't use it well as is (as I always have - sans any accoutremonts), it might as well be something else - but I have the SL2 for that - which is really barely bigger than an M [...] With a pinch of salt . Now, suffice it to set the shutter speeds to 1/(2f)s to avoid camera shake with my old steady hands so i can live with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris7273 Posted May 23, 2023 Share #173 Posted May 23, 2023 With some care, 1/30th with a 35mm is doable for me, but pixel peepers might be disappointed 🙂 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted May 23, 2023 Share #174 Posted May 23, 2023 On 5/20/2023 at 11:16 AM, lct said: +1. Leica said they could not implement IBIS in the M11 for lack of room but it should come in the M12 i guess. Nah, Leica are going to up the price of the M12 and throw in a free tripod.🤫. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted May 23, 2023 Share #175 Posted May 23, 2023 Nine pages, and I haven't seen any follow up from the OP about better controlled trials. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
35photo Posted May 23, 2023 Share #176 Posted May 23, 2023 On 5/12/2023 at 11:22 AM, wijsbroek said: Thank you for your feedback. I focussed on the tip of the arrow. I'm quite sure it isn't a focus issue. I just went through my photos and I think this issue occurs when the subject is further away. Portraits show no problem. See this image, which is just a very small part of the shot. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It’s either a focus issue or a calibration issue… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyrus Posted May 23, 2023 Share #177 Posted May 23, 2023 2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: Nine pages, and I haven't seen any follow up from the OP about better controlled trials. This! 9 pages of BS though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted May 23, 2023 Share #178 Posted May 23, 2023 2 hours ago, rustyrus said: This! 9 pages of BS though! The BS is strong with this thread, although there are some others vying for top spot too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lincoln_m Posted May 28, 2023 Share #179 Posted May 28, 2023 I've done some experiments with my 35mm summilux ASPH FLE and my M10. I get the same out of focus issue when I focus on an object on the ground at ~4m away then reframe the shot with the object in the bottom of the frame. If the original focus distance 4m is the hypotenuse and my eye is approx 2m above the ground (yeah I wish) then the object is actually 3.6m from my feet. The lens is still set to 4m when the photo is taken but the object is now too far forward and out of the depth of field. Than happens with the same lens even on a 24Mpixel camera (6um pixel pitch) (M11 has 60Mpixels at 3.8um pitch). The DOF charts for Leica lenses still use the old 30um circle of confusion used in film days (3M pixel scans) but if we use the more realistic 4um (because we are pixel peeping, then at 4m focus at F1.4 we find the DOF is now 4m +/- 7cm. But as mentioned earlier the object is actually 3.6m away which is infant of the 3.93m start of the DOF region. Even with an 8um circle of confusion the DOF is still only 4m +/- 15cm, object is still out of focus. Its not the range finder or lens calibration , not the shutter speed, although the slow readout electronic shutter sounds like a useless feature unless you have a rock solid tripod and are taking pictures of stationary objects. It's the mistake in assuming that the diagonal distance from the lens to the object on the ground (focus distance) is the same as from your feet to the object on the ground. Using a wide aperture and a very high res sensor (a high magnification at 100% on the screen) the circle of confusion is very small 4um or may 8um. Lens data sheet charts use 30um CoC and report ~ +/- 30cm DoF at 3m focus (they don't show 4m) so those charts might be OK for low res film capture but not 60Mpixels. Focus on the white feather then reframed. Only the apple tree leaves seem to be in focus in the reframed image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/376845-m11-motion-blur-is-driving-me-crazy/?do=findComment&comment=4781784'>More sharing options...
lincoln_m Posted May 28, 2023 Share #180 Posted May 28, 2023 Then I kept the same focus setting on the lens and adjusted my distance from a fence so that the screw in the middle of the fence panel lined up in the RF focus patch. Just to prove the focal plane is flat and perpendicular. The fence is in focus but the arm of the bench loses focus as it gets closer to the lens as expected with F1.4 narrow DoF. The assumption that H*Cos(theta)=A , theta in radians,H hypotenuse, A adjacent, only applies if theta is small (Cos(theta)=1 which only happens at long distances or if you don't reframe. Using wide apertures with the rangefinder at close distances when you reframe the shot makes it tricky. You probably have to use live view and a tripod assuming you can zoom in to other parts of the image without moving the camera away from the intended framing. I don't use Live View so I wouldn't know if you can do that zoom-in in live view? An SL may be better for those types of shots with auto-focus. M rangefinders are more about decisive moment image captures using hyperlocal pre-focus or infinity focus landscapes, as I do, than narrow DoF auto focus. I'm convincing myself that F1.4 is sort of pointless on a Rangefinder, but the quality of this 35mm summilux ASPH FLE is why I now prefer it to my 35mm summicronASPH even with the FLEs distortion, that the summicron doesn't have. The sum micron was made during film days (curved film) but the FLE is made for the flat digital sensors finer tolerances. Those are the stories I tell myself to justify the 2x price of 35 summilux ASPH FLE over summicron ASPH. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/376845-m11-motion-blur-is-driving-me-crazy/?do=findComment&comment=4781798'>More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now