M11 Motion blur is driving me crazy(!)

[LocalHero1953]

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1 hour ago, dugby said:

This is a useful focus tool that I use whenever I want to check lens focusing and fine tune my handholding slow shutter speeds

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Interesting! I made something looking exactly like this a number of years ago when I had a M. Made from MDF and printed off a near identical target and ruler (stretched by 1.41414… to allow for the angled view). I threw it out when I decided I wasn’t going back to a digital M. Datacolor has copied it (😉). 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, wdahab said:

The first picture, for any lens at f/1.4, even ASPH and modern, the corner sharpness isn't going to be there, ever. Attached is the official MTF chart for the 35mm Lux FLE ASPH and you can see that corner is going to be weak no matter what. For the other photo, of the eye, we need context. Where in the photo is that crop taken from? If it's near the center, then it's apples to oranges comparison. If it's also all the way in the corner, like the first photo, well, then that would be more interesting.

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Caveat: I don't want to take this thread off topic. Alas, it may be useful to establish 'what good looks like', in addition to the other helpful suggestions.

I have different experiences regarding 'any lens at f/1.4 corner sharpness not there'. For M mount, e.g. the Zeiss 35mm is substantially ahead of the Summilux. L mount is on a different planet altogether, e.g. shot my Sigma 35mm at f/1.2 this pm (lazy image to demonstrate the point - no sharpening applied). Lens Rentals has corresponding MTF - it turns out to be better than the Noctilux 75, and more than 50% better than the most recent M Summilux 35 (with much nicer Bokeh to boot):

One more, edge to edge meeting my expectations (Sigma 35mm shot at f/1.2, no crop - full image):

Edited May 13, 2023 by mzbe

[jaapv]

17 hours ago, wijsbroek said:

I told my wife 🙂

Like all of us married blokes did/do 🫠

[neonvoid]

Maybe because you're shooting at f/1.4 and focusing so close, the DOF is too shallow to easily see the area in focus, especially when the transition is very gradual, like in your case.

Edited May 13, 2023 by neonvoid

[lct]

I can't seem to see either motion blur (no moving subject) nor camera shake (fast shutter speed) here. Only a misfocus issue possibly. On a high-res rangefinder like the M11, nailing focus with the RF is difficult at full magnification. I never use the RF for this purpose personally.  When i need to nail focus at 60mp, i only use the Visoflex 2 with focus magnification. 

[wijsbroek]

15 hours ago, wdahab said:

But it's not an aspect where "close focusing" will work better or not. It's that every camera and f1.4 lens will be blurry in the corners or sides at any distance, close or far, even if you used the EVF to do the focusing and nail it. The inherent physics of the lens/aperture/angles will make it a bit smeary no matter what. It's not an M11 or Summilux issue or "motion blur" or camera shake issue, or lack of quality/refinement. Any wide-open full frame lens (at least that's been developed to this day) on any system is going to be inherently soft in the corners no matter the distance, close or far, at f1.4. It's one of the reasons why the APOs are so sharp, but don't go below f2.

Okay, that’s clear 👌🏻

[wijsbroek]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

I can't seem to see either motion blur (no moving subject) nor camera shake (fast shutter speed) here. Only a misfocus issue possibly. On a high-res rangefinder like the M11, nailing focus with the RF is difficult at full magnification. I never use the RF for this purpose personally.  When i need to nail focus at 60mp, i only use the Visoflex 2 with focus magnification. 

Thanks, I used the visoflex 2. I think it was in focus. Seems like it in the picture too (when not pixel peeping 😃).

[wijsbroek]

2 hours ago, neonvoid said:

Maybe because you're shooting at f/1.4 and focusing so close, the DOF is too shallow to easily see the area in focus, especially when the transition is very gradual, like in your case.

Yes, could be!

 

[DBounce]

46 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

Yes, could be!

 

Which is exactly what I said on page one of this post:

”All I see in the image posted is the focal fall off from the shallow dof.”

[jaapv]

After some sharpening, we can see that the focal plane is towards the point of the arrow and that there are lens aberrations going on.  But... I also see double contours.

 

 

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[lct]

3 hours ago, wijsbroek said:

Thanks, I used the visoflex 2. I think it was in focus. Seems like it in the picture too (when not pixel peeping 😃).

Should be sharp, within the optical limits of the lens, including when pixel peeping. May i ask how the Visoflex was used? With focus magnification? If so, which magnification did you choose? Just curious. 

[wijsbroek]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

After some sharpening, we can see that the focal plane is towards the point of the arrow and that there are lens aberrations going on.  But... I also see double contours.

 

 

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The double contours Made me think of camera shake. 

[wijsbroek]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Should be sharp, within the optical limits of the lens, including when pixel peeping. May i ask how the Visoflex was used? With focus magnification? If so, which magnification did you choose? Just curious. 

I focussed with 10x magnification. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, wijsbroek said:

I focussed with 10x magnification. 

I see no reason for softness then unless the focus point was closer than MFD. I would choose a 3D subject to make sure, like the one below.
M11 + Visoflex 2 + 35/1.4 FLE @ f/1.4 handheld (FF & crop)

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[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

After some sharpening, we can see that the focal plane is towards the point of the arrow and that there are lens aberrations going on.  But... I also see double contours.

 

 

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I see sharpening artefacts. 

[jaapv]

That too. Hard to miss. But notice the highlights on the tarmac turning into little parallel lines. 

[wijsbroek]

17 hours ago, lct said:

I see no reason for softness then unless the focus point was closer than MFD. I would choose a 3D subject to make sure, like the one below.
M11 + Visoflex 2 + 35/1.4 FLE @ f/1.4 handheld (FF & crop)

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It was further away than the MFD. I took some very sharp photos too. I just think it's worse at some distance. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, wijsbroek said:

It was further away than the MFD. I took some very sharp photos too. I just think it's worse at some distance. 

The 35/1.4 FLE keeps decently sharp on close-ups at full aperture thanks to its floating elements. FF and crop at about 1.7m below (M11 handheld @ f/1.4). 

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[lct]

4 hours ago, lct said:

FF and crop at about 1.7m below

I meant to say about 0.7m sorry.

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[hdmesa]

On 5/12/2023 at 4:12 AM, wijsbroek said:

Hi everyone, 

Photography has been my love for over 30 years now. I've owned a lot of camera's (film and digital). I recently switched from medium format Fujifilm (GFX-50r, which was big and heavy like a brick) to Leica M11. A dream came true. I love everything about the camera except two things. First is dust on the sensor. I only use one lens and never take it of. Still there's more and more dust on the sensor over time. Is this normal? Isn't the camera sealed?

But my GREAT problem is... motion blur. I've never experienced it this way. I know it's said to be a resolution thing, but coming from 50MP medium format, I was quite used to high resolution and never experienced these kind of problems.

I'm using a new Summilux 35/1.4 (not the newest, close range focussing version, but the previous). I'm having most problems shooting (almost) wide open. It's nearly impossible to take a non-motion-blurred shot. It's not focussing, That looks okay from a distance. But zooming in... everything has motion blur (or something else?). Even at 1/6500s...

Of course I have been practising a lot with the M11. Please look at this test shot. Looks okay, but then... when you zoom in... I know, I know this is an extreme close-up, but still I was used to a quite sharp (motion free) part of the picture, using bij GFX camera. I do not pixel peep at all!

I really hope someone can give me the golden tip. It's driving me crazy and I'm thinking about selling my dream camera. This really makes me sad.

Leica M11
ISO 64
1/6500s
F/1.4
Processed in Capture one (used Light too, no difference).

Thank you in advance!

 

 

Hey, Harry. Call me crazy, but in looking at the images on your website, I have a hard time believing you could take a shot this bad. The point of focus looks like it should be completely outside the frame below the image.

Can you shoot another test and instead focus at the center of the frame and make sure you don't recompose after focusing? Please make no adjustments to the DNG before exporting it. Also please do not strip out the EXIF metadata when you export the image so we can see that it was shot with an M11.

Edited May 14, 2023 by hdmesa