Contemplating Forgiveness--Why Do We Accept the M8?

[Guest Walt]

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Jamie,

 

Thanks for the very decent reply.

 

On the issues you raise, I don't find any problem at all with the file quality--it's more than I need and I have no trouble processing and printing files. And I certainly don't generalize that this is an "awful" camera.

 

Some of the operational flaws have been very irritating, but the shutter release has been the huge one for me. I haven't given any details on my "fix" because I'm not at all sure it's a good idea and I don't want to encourage people. For me it was a matter of fixing the problem or getting rid of the cameras The lubrication does transform the feel of the camera (it actually suddenly reminds me of an M camera, which is still startling after a week when I'm shooting), but it may be problematic in the long run. What I did required a microscope and a watchmaker's lubrication syringe and then sealing the shutter release/cable release mechanism against dust. If the tiny amount of lubrication migrates inside the camera it could cause problems. It might also attract debris and get worse with time and then require a disassembly for cleaning. I'll see. It would be better if these parts were dry, but Leica would have had to do a more careful job polishing two parts. The variation in casting or machining and then polishing is certainly what accounts for the differences between cameras and the variability within one camera (because these parts rotate against each other and thus change position). Any Leica mechanic reading what I've just said would understand the problem, but I suspect that Leica has just not been willing to be careful with these parts because they think it doesn't matter. To me, the *predictability* of a shutter release is the most important issue in a camera. At the moment I can't even bring myself to use the still unlubricated camera.

 

Best,

Walt

[orjanf]

We seem to have in this thread people leaning towards being:

 

a. collectors who want perfectly functioning equipment.

(box brownies are not perfect but everything always functions as intended)

 

b. photograpers who want perfect pictures.

(pictures from M8 are not perfect but nothing better ( and portable) is available)

 

This may account for some differences in satisfaction level.

 

It may be presumtious to comment on Vinays posts but I find they add to the variety and interest of this forum.

[Guest Walt]

Hank and Larry-

 

Please see my last response to Jamie. I have thought of talking with Mark about this issue. I'm a bit of a micro-mechanic, but I'm lost on the electrical issues.

 

Perhaps this will help thinking about the shutter release problem for those who have it: If you seal the cable release fitting with your finger tip, you can trap air inside the main release button and this can force the cable release mechanism to move slightly. So, using a soft release (the threads of which probably don't completely seal against the shutter release button threads) or the joint of your finger is probably allowing air to escape.

 

As for Hank's comment about my sticking with the camera, I just ain't got anything better and the images are fine.

 

Best,

Walt

[ttriolo]

This is complete nonsense. Not ready for prime time? Tell that to the art directors that have been telling me they have never seen better looking files. I'm basically making my living right now with this "not ready for prime time" camera.

 

What you perhaps should have said is that the M8 is not ready for people who don't quite know what they're doing with a digital camera. Anyone who relies on AWB for color accuracy with the M8 or any other camera gets what they deserve. That is the most unreliable way to shoot--period (with the M8 or any other digital camera). There is a reason those other little icons are shown below AWB. Try them out. In particular, try the Manual setting. When you figure out how to use the M8, it nails the color like nothing you've ever seen.

 

When you have to resort to multiple work-arounds, firmware updates, filters on lenses, extensive post processing, etc. etc. you do not have a camera that is living up to its billing as a truly professional device. I don't care how many art directors you have. All they are looking at is the end results. They have no idea how you got there or what you went through to get there. As a commercial photographer for over 30 years, I think I know a little something about color balance, RAW vs JPEG, manual vs auto. That is not the issue. If you could read, you'd see where I stated that I seldom use anything but RAW with post processing when needed. The simple fact is, that those who do chose to shoot compressed (it is a function of the camera after all) will be sorely disappointed. Furthermore, I'll bet you would not accept the same level of work-arounds, adaptation, constant firmware updates on say, a Hassey or a Sinar as you do for the M8. It may be a great tool for what you do and how you do it, but don't assume everyone does it the same way. That's just arrogant.

[larry]

It may be a great tool for what you do and how you do it, but don't assume everyone does it the same way.

 

Tony,

 

Good words to live by. My camera works well for me, but I understand that everyone has different needs, expectations and skill levels.

 

Larry

[Jamie Roberts]

Tony,

 

Good words to live by. My camera works well for my, but I understand that everyone has different needs, expectations and skill levels.

 

Larry

 

....and they can buy a different camera, no?

[larry]

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....and they can buy a different camera, no?

 

Jamie,

 

If a camera bugged me as much as the M8 seems to bug some folks here, I would trade it a heartbeat!

 

Larry

[fotografr]

When you have to resort to multiple work-arounds, firmware updates, filters on lenses, extensive post processing, etc. etc. you do not have a camera that is living up to its billing...

 

1. I have no workarounds. My M8 files get the same treatment as those from any other digital camera I use.

2. Do other cameras not have firmware updates? I consider this a positive, not negative, attribute.

3. I have always used some kind of filter on my lenses. I have no problem whatsoever with the UV/IR cut filters.

 

"It may be a great tool for what you do and how you do it, but don't assume everyone does it the same way. That's just arrogant."

 

I make no such assumptions. The M8 works for me. If it doesn't for you, get rid of it.

[hankg]

It would be better if these parts were dry, but Leica would have had to do a more careful job polishing two parts. The variation in casting or machining and then polishing is certainly what accounts for the differences between cameras and the variability within one camera (because these parts rotate against each other and thus change position). Any Leica mechanic reading what I've just said would understand the problem, but I suspect that Leica has just not been willing to be careful with these parts because they think it doesn't matter. To me, the *predictability* of a shutter release is the most important issue in a camera. At the moment I can't even bring myself to use the still unlubricated camera.

 

Best,

Walt

You should contact DAG if it is a question of finer finishing in the machining he might be willing to disassemble the shutter release and work the pieces so that they are smoother for you. He is always up to anything that is doable in the way of mods.

[ho_co]

Wow!! I'm impressed by the interest my post has elicited. It shows we feel very strongly about the camera. I haven't had time to go through a lot of the comments, so let me address just a few of the early ones:

 

 

How, and by what perverse (in a good way:) ) frame of mind do you manage this sort of record keeping? I'm amazed.

Reasonable question. Just my nature, I guess. When I noticed that it was skipping some file numbers, I figured I might need some specifics before complaining--but it is an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? What causes it to skip a file number but increment the "Image Unique ID" correctly?

 

 

I accept the M8 because it has performed flawlessly for me. If I couldn't rely on it or it was a constant headache I'd dump it and use something else.

Don't misunderstand; it's no 'constant headache.' And I took only one body both because I have only one, and also because I expect it to work when needed. I lost only two shots because of camera behavior.

 

 

Perhaps because the M8 is easy to carry, pleasant to use and capable of producing better images than my Canons and L lenses?

Size, quality, and that indescribable "rightness" that makes it 'pleasant to use': Three reasons I've always gone for Leica as well.

 

 

... probably voluntary for the majority. ... the M8 is a landmark product for the company, ... an aside to the OP: what is the serial # batch of your problematic M8?

Good point in 'landmark product' for Leica. Early serial number: 310xxxx.

 

 

These must be rocks in someone else's shoes. The list of the M8's endearing qualities is far longer than the list of its deficiencies – too long to list here. I've never owned a camera that didn't have some alleged fatal flaws.

Few have alleged 'fatal flaws'; I certainly haven't intended to do so. But that misses the question: We all put up with or sincerely admire the camera, and as you say, its endearing qualities outnumber its deficiencies. That's exactly the point I'm making: I want to hear what features others find compelling about the camera.

 

 

I can easily accept the "quirks" of the camera but to me these are not quirks, they are job-enders for me. It would have to go in for repair.

Don't worry, it will go for repair; but there again, I like the camera enough that I'm postponing that action.

 

... the only time I had an image not write it was a bad SD card (perhaps your problem?)

Could indeed be a bad SD card, but all other files wrote properly to that card. I'll continue to pay attention and see if it happens again. The bad file-write may have come at a time when I turned the camera off while it was still writing. But I'm aware of having done that several times, and there was only the single truncated file. And IMHO a camera should finish the write even if the operator turns it off early.

 

... I think we accept some of this because it is the only game it town if you want manual focusing, rangefinder, and the advantages that affords.

All good reasons.

 

 

I often think I will sell the lot but then again hmm.

Again, my point exactly. That "hmm" is the question I'm raising--what is it? Feel? Size? Weight? The fact that full manual operation makes the camera seem "right," unlike the digital behemoths, which if you switch them to full manual you feel as if you've defeated the very purpose of the camera?

 

 

Simple for me: the glass and the image quality.

Again, good reasons.

 

 

Thanks to everyone who has commented. I will read more posts soon, but I'm really glad to see such thought and feeling come so swiftly.

 

--HC

[marknorton]

Walt, while I do not have as bad an experience as you do, I am still no fan of the shutter feel (I also own an M6, which has a wonderful feel), so I would be curious about your teflon treatment. What have you done to improve it?

 

Carsten, you may remember I posted instructions on how to adjust the shutter release feel but I don't think anyone did it. As the first person to lever off their red dot and get out the 2mm hex key, I had thought you most likely.

 

I certainly would not insert a teflon spray into the cable release socket and hope for the best - teflon is a rather good insulator... The best place to put it would be to coat the domed side of the plungers, one shown in this picture.

 

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[DaveSee]

Howard-

 

I have not "forgiven" the camera, but I continue to use it for four reasons.

 

The first is the that I am simply accustomed to working with the M cameras and I haven't found an acceptable alternative that, on balance, is quite usable for me. I've tried and will continue to do so.

 

A good place to start in reponse to this thread, being "accustomed to working with [Leica] M[-mount] cameras". I added to your post because we are not discussing a newer film Leica M camera, and there are many who have come to this system from DSLRs, etc. While I do not forgive Leica because I too am so accustomed, I have a Bessa, and tried the R-D1... and qietly returned to film.

The second is that I seem to have found my own lubrication solution for the shutter release mechanism, which is otherwise the worst I have experienced in a camera and is, for me, a deal-breaker on the M8.

I have never found the shutter release so irksome. My M films cameras have but one, very simple function, and directly coupled to the shutter mechanism...

Thirdly, I'm lucky enought to be able to afford to own two bodies (I will probably need three) and two copies of each of the three lenses I use. (Leica has had one of my 28s for coming up on two months now, and a 35 is out to replace the grease melted out of it by a heated-up camera.)

This speaks more of volumes of data, not the quality. I have one M8, and the M4(or XA) is backup. My lenses seem to work as they have for 20 years... so, I'm lucky, I guess. Having two versions of a "flawed" camera is interesting, but ...

Fourthly, I have clung to the belief (or just hope?) that the serious reliability and functional problems in this camera could be corrected through firmware and that Leica was committed to making those corrections. It seemed unimaginable to me that they would not have that committment. For a long while, I even believed that they would take forum member's suggestions to fix the shutter release with the zero-delay time release idea, implemented in software.

 

It now seems fairly clear that there are several ill-designed or archaic or unreliable hardware bits in this camera and firmware will do nothing for that. It now also seems, to me, probable that Leica is not committed to correcting what they could through the firmware. A year after the camera release, Leica has added code to support and sell new products (the Summarits) and, they say, gotten the battery level indicator to work. The scroll correction does not work (I'd speculate it's the scroll wheel hardware at fault); and their proprietary red-eye flash function is probably the least needed thing on this camera, though it might help them sell flash units. They have not actually made any statement of intent to the public to do anything about obvious problems and I now doubt they have such intent. It simply doesn't take that long to write software for a damned camera if you're serious about getting it done.

 

On this last pool of observations, and the OP's listing, I too have had one lock-up(battery removal fix), and odd "play-back"(scroll wheel mis-behaving). I'm not forgiving Leica for what I feel is a "split-brain" problem in the logic programmed in the camera.

 

Just as I find fickle the light meter in my M6(since disabled by removing the battery years ago), so to the M8, and so too it's WB algos. I am in the minority here, I know, but since receipt of my M8 a year ago, I've used the manual WB exclusively, and from the start.

 

The filesystem format of my SD cards is months old, and all cards are 2GB only.

 

My mention of "split-brain" is in reference to 1) "Data Acquisition" and 2) "Data RE-presentation". That is, system resources dedicated to acquiring the image data, and resources required to RE-present that data on the camera LCD. The two have a couple interesting things in common: battery and SD card/filesystem. System RAM is a component of "battery" too... and in a Firesign Theatre moment(forgive me!) "How can you be two places at once, when you're nowhere at all!" "Zebra/Venitian stripes, poor scrolling, and wrong image at playback" all suggest VERY bad memory management, and sloppy code to sift the bits. The AWB issues also suggest this, as if between each shutter actuation, the WB algos are re-run.

 

Add to this, "Auto Preview", which reads all data--from the filesystem on the SD card--and applies the in-camera JPEG algos to the result...

 

...so, it would seem, the M8 is strained to write a LOT of data(DNG) per shutter press, then(perhaps), shift its resources to reading that data--not from battery hungry RAM, but--from the SD card VFAT(omg, what a poorly optimezed file system!) data...

 

...we either get slower writes, to preserve the data acquisition records(AWB), or slower reads(image playback) to attempt the same.

 

Don't know about your sense of "accustomed to working with [Leica] M cameras", but chimping was not an option

 

The OP's loss of data, mis-numbered files, "black frames", etc. suggest file system issues(bad card socket, bad card, and bad memory chip included). "Awful AWB" is masked by many cameras by applying an "Auto Levels" function in a non-linear fashion: read, DR is tossed out of low or high-key data samples... where do you think IS is derived? Hint: "We can give you a better rate, but it will cost you some points."

So, the question I would have asked is, "Why does Leica appear to have forgiven this camera?" And secondly, I suppose, "Why do you forgive Leica for forgiving it?"

 

Walt

 

I cannot forgive this rig, nor Leica for it, because there is nothing remotely close to it, as I too am "accustomed". I also cannot forgive the "split-brain" issues I've had with Leica service, when folk in NJ, AND folk in Solms describe(render) to me that "we don't know what 'they' are doing" :/ Not enough to have me RE-invest in DSLR or Ricoh kit to sate what I think I know Leica had intended... just trying to steer clear of Leica service Ducking the issues? No, just packing along flame-retardant clothing, and remembering that I can be ignored too!

 

rgds,

Dave

[delander †]

Thank you Dave for that analysis.

 

Does it boil down to the fact that if Leica writes the FW to solve the current operational problems that will mean slowing the electronic functions of the camera down somewhat. Alternatively, they would have to change some of the parts in the camera to faster more efficient designs?

 

Perhaps these are the reasons why Leica have been so tardy in fixing this?

 

Jeff

[carstenw]

Carsten, you may remember I posted instructions on how to adjust the shutter release feel but I don't think anyone did it. As the first person to lever off their red dot and get out the 2mm hex key, I had thought you most likely.

 

I certainly would not insert a teflon spray into the cable release socket and hope for the best - teflon is a rather good insulator... The best place to put it would be to coat the domed side of the plungers, one shown in this picture.

 

[ATTACH]60902[/ATTACH]

 

Mark, you cannot say something like that around me! Well, that was the push, and I did it. More info in your shutter-adjustment thread, where it belongs, IMO:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/27130-adjusting-shutter-release-feel.html

[Guest tummydoc]

Vinay, calling my response "marketing-ese" insinuates that I'm marketing something, no?

 

Well, I suppose it could be said you were trying to sell us a load But, no. You simply chose to emulate the stylistics of copy-writers to spin-doctor the facts to support a ludicrous assertion that Leica has done any of what they've done altruistically rather than clearly and absolutely in the interest of self-preservation.

[DaveSee]

Thank you Dave for that analysis.

 

Does it boil down to the fact that if Leica writes the FW to solve the current operational problems that will mean slowing the electronic functions of the camera down somewhat. Alternatively, they would have to change some of the parts in the camera to faster more efficient designs?

 

Perhaps these are the reasons why Leica have been so tardy in fixing this?

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

 

As with many posts on this system, and the JPEGs too, my comments would be best considered observations, and what I make of them... atm

 

I do not believe f/w can "correct" the constraints of power(battery), data acquisition(processing when pressing the shutter) and data representation(processing when pressing the back-panel buttons and "scroll wheel"... only optimise the best compromise among them. From another observation: consider the rig when powered up to "wait" for either a shutter press, or back-panel button command; at either action, the system resources are dedicated to either acquiring or presenting data. If the system RAM is not used entirely, but stores some data between these actions, then we have what seems a delay... either acquiring data(thus slightly less than the decisive moment), or presenting data stored on the SD card(thus, we "wait for it")... seems that Leica has favored the acquisition--thankfully--because the "Play" function seems to work with a stutter I suspect the AWB issue is one of resetting the shot calculations between each shutter press...

 

...dunno. I do not chimp much, but I've in mind to do a couple tests where, 1) I use the continuous mode shutter and AWB; and 2) carry my hand-held light meter and ignore the in-built meter... using "A" mode too, and comparing what the EXIF lists and what my hand-held suggested.

 

As to changing parts, some of this is vendor driven, and then there's the fallacy of blaming h/w for poor programming... a 386 x86 CPU is plently fast for shopping on-line, but those Java, Flash and Audio "requirements" demand(sic) faster processing... my point is: the h/w may be just fine, and the time(and RAM) we need could take as long to lock up the mirror, or engage an AF routine As Walt points out, including the new lenses took time away from other f/w programming, as did his newer 28 Elmarit a year ago... many here just don't like the nits Leica's chosen to pick, too.

 

rgds,

Dave

[sean_reid]

Jamie-

 

In my experience--and I make this not as a rhetorical comment, but a description of my experience--the M8 has the roughest, most inconsistent shutter release I have ever used on a camera. It is a real-world, day-to-day problem for me. I base this on experience with five samples of the body. If the shutter were consistently rough, that might be acceptable. But the feel changes constantly and I cannot learn how much pressure is required to consistently release it. That interferes with the timing of my work and I find that unacceptable. I accept that that is not your experience, but it is mine whether you like it or not.

 

Walt

 

Hi Walt,

 

I believe you, of course, and respect your perspective. It always surprises me to read about the shutter feel issues because I've used various examples of the M8 and have never had a problem with the shutter release feel of any of them. Is this, perhaps, something you might want adjusted? I do use a soft release and press the shutter with the first bend of my finger.

 

Best,

 

Sean

[hankg]

I am sure Leica has an ear on forum feedback, dealer feedback, the pros they lend camera's to at places like Magnum and the users who are beta testing - but the opinion that any company pays closest attention to is that represented by sales volume. Even if every pro and forum participant who touched the camera proclaimed it brilliant, if it didn't sell it would be written of as a flop by management. The reverse would also be true.

 

Based on the M8 sales Leica is probably feeling pretty good about the M8 despite what ever may be said here. They are probably either working on or figuring out what they can or should do about the various issues raised. The IR issue did not get identified by their beta testers, it was first discovered in the forums and Leica responded as they realized how serious an issue it was. I would assume that proved to the company the value of forum feedback -of course with the internet where people are happy to give authoritative opinions about and review equipment they have never used you must be careful to separate signal from noise and a lot of the rants pro and con are so absurd as to make even the worthwhile information suspect. This is unfortunate because the shutter release issue is something that should be addressed but it's lost in the over the top rants about how the camera is useless (I haven't heard anything about the shutter from this crowd although now that they have read it on the 'internets' they will add it to their litany) which drown out the reasoned and useful feedback/criticism of actual photographers.

 

I suspect many of the short comings of the M8 will only be addressed in the M9 or M8 MKII and which ones those will be probably even Leica does not know yet but the priority will be to keep sales growing- so codes for new lenses come first. No sales growth, no Leica so that is no surprise. IR was a 3 alarm emergency because management so it potentially impacting sales big time so it will go with the priority they give any issue.

[stunsworth]

. The IR issue did not get identified by their beta testers, it was first discovered in the forums and Leica responded as they realized how serious an issue it was.

 

Hi Hank, I'm a bit sceptical about this. My personal opinion - and I have no facts to back this up <grin> - is that Leica were totally aware of the IR problem and hoped to get a hardware fix in place before the camera was launched. The management had committed the company to a release date, the fix wasn't forthcoming, and the rest is history.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[carstenw]

Some of the beta testers later said that they had mentioned the problem to Leica, who had requested that it not be published, to allow for time to fix it. This is all normal. The problem is that it wasn't fixed, and no filter deal was mentioned until later.