Get one more Leica body or Hasselblad X2D

[Guest]

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16 hours ago, Yihong said:

Thanks, I should be able to rent one if I attend some Leica events, so I can use it for some time to have a test. The SL body is almost 900g, I don't think I will take it out together with my M but good for portrait shooting.

SL2: 835g, M11 silver: 640g (+ Visoflex 2: 93g, hand grip 87g)

Edited April 25, 2023 by mzbe

[Squad]

The discussion has drifted a little bit and it looks like you already decided on the SL. Congratulations!

Everyone has different requirements, though. Personally I would’ve chosen a X2D coupled with something like the XCD 2,8/135, and leave it mostly in the studio. If I would like it my next candidate would then be a XCD 2,5/55V, but it would hardly be comfortable to take out the X2D and an extra M body. I would take either and then something smaller as a second backup body.

But as you wanted to continue to use your Nocti it is probably more rational not to get into another completely different system. I wouldn’t use Leica lenses on the Hasselblad.

[Yihong]

7 hours ago, mzbe said:

SL2: 835g, M11 silver: 640g (+ Visoflex 2: 93g, hand grip 87g)

 No Visoflex is needed because I have it on the first body. No hand grip, not feeling good ergonomically.

M11 black: 530g. Macro-Elmar 90mm: 230g. 

 

[Yihong]

7 hours ago, Squad said:

But as you wanted to continue to use your Nocti it is probably more rational not to get into another completely different system. I wouldn’t use Leica lenses on the Hasselblad.

Yeah, I will try SL2 and maybe wait a bit for SL3. 

[chriscove]

I always have my M11 and 35 FLE, M10M (soon to be M11M) with a 28 Cron/orange filter with me when I travel or go for a walk. I will bring either a 21 SEM or 90/2.4 with me. It easily fits in the small Peak Design messenger bag. One is on the outside of the bag via the capture clip and other either in the bag or around my neck. This is a very convenient way to travel. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by chriscove

[Stuart Richardson]

This truly seems to be a solution in search of a problem. I think you might save yourself many thousands of dollars by buying a rocket blower... Also not sure what sandstorms you all seem to be shooting in, haha. I can't say I have ever had all that much issue changing lenses outside in twenty years of using digital cameras. Of course, dust happens, but it is generally just a speck or two unless the conditions are very bad during a change. You might also consider turning your back to the wind when you change lenses...that is pretty much standard practice for me here, in the windiest country on Earth.

I will say, however, that the SL series makes a great compliment to the M cameras, especially with noctiluxes, so it seem you found a good solution!

[IkarusJohn]

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I came to digital from Nikons (F5 was my last) and Hasselblad's (503cx and SWC) - the M9 was my first proper digital.  I was so enamoured with the M9 and Leica M lenses that I sold off my remaining film gear (still have the SWC).

Over time, I added M lenses, and a second body (monochrome); then things expanded with an SL, three zooms and two primes; and I loved the X1DII, and added 21/46/80 & 135 lenses ... then sanity stepped in.  I prefer manual focus, and love my M lenses.

The SL lenses were too heavy to take all together, except in the boot of the car - besides, I found that I preferred the M equivalents, even though they were not objectively as good.  So I sold off my SL lenses, save for the 24-90 zoom and my Elmarit-R 180/2.8.  This left me with the SL, a tele, a zoom and a great universal platform for my larger M lenses (75 Summilux, 50 Noctilux & 21 Summilux).

The X1D II and lenses went - I saw no point in duplicating focal lengths in another system, much as I liked the X1D II (though its AF wasn't great, MF not as nice as the M lenses and if I left it on, the thing overheated very quickly, as it autofocused on everything as I walked about) I couldn't justify keeping it.  To be honest, I didn't miss it.  But, if I ever sell out of the M & SL systems, the X2D and 21, 80, 135 and 35-70 zoom would be my replacement, I suspect.

What got me to where I am?  Unlike @FlashGordonPhotography, I have zero justification for having multiple systems.  I found I love the M system and the M lenses.  My SL is just an adjunct to that fundamental decision.  Within the M system, I was very disappointed with Leica's support for their digital systems (pissed off would be a better description), so I have hedged my bets - my original M9 monochrome (as I love black & white), an M10-D (I like the concept) and an M-A (as I can't resist film, and it has no electronics for Leica to cock-up).  So, my choices are M bodies and M lenses.

Will I buy another digital M camera?  Probably not - as my Monochrom and M10-D fail, I will revert to film.

I have traveled internationally with my SL, and won't do so again - the body and lenses are just too big and heavy.  In future, I will almost certainly take the Monochrome and M10-D, and 3 or 4 lenses.  I would prefer it if they had the same batteries and proper in camera charging; and if I was starting from scratch, I would buy the M10-D and M10-M, or the M11-M and M11-P or M11-D, whichever comes along.  But, I'm not starting from scratch ...

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 4/25/2023 at 1:45 AM, Yihong said:

Yeah, I'm still in bokeh fever from the Noctilux lenses. 75mm is much easier to nail the focus in close-up shooting when compared to 50mm on M11, even without EVF or magnification(I don't usually use it, switching around makes me dizzy). 

I never tried 28mm before, I have 35 lux but don't like it too much, 21mm is super wide and fits me quite well. May I please ask how you find 28mm different from 35mm? 

I’ve always preferred 28mm to 35 simply because my base is 50mm and the 28 offers a better spread. I’m in Venice right now and often 35 would be too long.

Gordon

[dpitt]

15 hours ago, mzbe said:

SL2: 835g, M11 silver: 640g (+ Visoflex 2: 93g, hand grip 87g)

For me it is the size of body and lenses that really differentiates the M from the SL (or any other DSLR/mirrorless). Totally different in use. But I like my SL for anything my M9 can not do. Even if I had a M11 I only would use the EVF only if I have to. With EVF the M11 is only a SL wannabe, and it is not a rangefinder anymore. I experimented with EVF on M240 and was tempted by a M10, but decided to go for the SL for my R lenses, and keep using the M9 as my M a bit longer in stead of upgrading the M9 to something that could also use the R lenses and do macro. The SL is made for this, the Ms are not.

 

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

...

What got me to where I am?  Unlike @FlashGordonPhotography, I have zero justification for having multiple systems.  I found I love the M system and the M lenses.  My SL is just an adjunct to that fundamental decision.  Within the M system, I was very disappointed with Leica's support for their digital systems (pissed off would be a better description), so I have hedged my bets - my original M9 monochrome (as I love black & white), an M10-D (I like the concept) and an M-A (as I can't resist film, and it has no electronics for Leica to cock-up).  So, my choices are M bodies and M lenses.

Will I buy another digital M camera?  Probably not - as my Monochrom and M10-D fail, I will revert to film.

I have traveled internationally with my SL, and won't do so again - the body and lenses are just too big and heavy.  In future, I will almost certainly take the Monochrome and M10-D, and 3 or 4 lenses.  I would prefer it if they had the same batteries and proper in camera charging; and if I was starting from scratch, I would buy the M10-D and M10-M, or the M11-M and M11-P or M11-D, whichever comes along.  But, I'm not starting from scratch ...

Exactly my position. I use my Ms as traveling camera's and use the SL as a great addition for work close by and indoors. Having both gives you the best of both worlds. And the M lenses work better on the SL than the R lenses do on the Ms with EVF.

IMHO Leica and all the other mirror less brands missed an opportunity by making their lenses so big and heavy. Technically it should be possible to make a prime that is not much bigger than my Summicron 90 R and half the weight, with AF and IS built in. At least the longer flange distance is no longer an excuse to make their lenses larger than the M lenses. (flange distances is actually shorter for all mirror less)

[Jon Warwick]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

I have traveled internationally with my SL, and won't do so again - the body and lenses are just too big and heavy. 

I can empathise, I used to have the SL2 and SL Summicron APO ....I sold it for a GFX100S + GF 50mm, saved 400g in weight, saved bag space (the GF 50mm lens is compact), and with 100mp of medium format quality to boot.  But in Leica world, I've yet to find anything I like as much as my Ms, at present an M10M (potentially to become an M11M)

Edited April 26, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[DadDadDaddyo]

It's good to hear about these considerations from other photographers. I, too, am well-equipped in both the M system (M11, M10M) and the SL system. I also have a fairly complete system built around the GFX100S. 

I've made recent moves to condense and align these categories of equipment in an attempt to bring better control both to the inventory and their application to my actual use patterns. Toward that end, I've reduced the number of zooms I've kept for the GFX100s, concentrating instead on using it with primes. I've kept both primes and the zooms for the SL2 (in zooms, the 24-90 and 90-280). And I've concentrated the M system on primes in the 28mm to 135mm range. 

In truth, since adoption of the M10M, and to even a greater extent since adoption of the M11, my use of the GFX system has dropped to a tiny percentage of what it was when I was using Leica bodies in the 24 megapixel class. My typical printed output is in the 16x20 inch range, but sometimes in the approx. 24x36 inch range, employing a 24 inch Canon ImagePROGRAF printer. 

Before the GFX100S, I used a GFX50R and found it extremely suitable for the print sizes I've just mentioned. My move to the GFX100S was intended to give me room for cropping. In fact, however, I tend to frame on the assumption of using all or nearly all of the full frame. 

So my current thinking is to consider clearing out of the GFX system entirely, to consolidate in the M and SL systems. I hesitate to let go of that gear, but I'm frankly not using it, and not needing it within the scope of my use patterns. I'm near to concluding that I can pull funds out of the GFX gear to facilitate fine-tuning my other gear, without meaningful compromise to what I do photographically or to the results I can achieve. 

[ynp]

On 4/25/2023 at 11:03 PM, Squad said:

Personally I would’ve chosen a X2D coupled with something like the XCD 2,8/135, and leave it mostly in the studio. I

I am envious. You have a pretty big studio for the 135mm. I’d need another 2 meters to enjoy the lens fully. 😊

[Tailwagger]

On 4/25/2023 at 11:50 AM, mzbe said:

SL2: 835g, M11 silver: 640g (+ Visoflex 2: 93g, hand grip 87g)

SL 50mm Summilux: 1065g, M Summilux: 335g 

I never worry much about body weight, lenses OTOH... 

IMO this particular choice comes down to whether the goal is convenience or added capability. I used to regularly shoot with two Ms, but these days, I'll drag along the SL2 instead with the 70-200 instead (and 1.4x)  with the M11 WATE/28 Lux/50 Lux.  If I'm tired the SL goes into the trunk. That combination give almost anything I'd ever need regardless of what I happen to run into. But I'm generally undaunted by changing lenses in the field.  That said, just the other day I had a shoot that precluded any lens swapping so I showed up with two Ms, 28/50 lux and the SL2 with the 70-200. 

As for SL vs XD, I have an X1Dii, which though I love I would say that I don't find it pairs well with the M.   The shooting experience is quite dissimilar which AFAIC requires a completely different mindset. To my mind if an additional M isnt the answer, I'd prefer the SL2. 

[tom0511]

Am 22.4.2023 um 17:49 schrieb mzbe:

The best solution to achieve predictable focus accuracy with the Noctilux (wide open) that I have found is the SL2(-S). The SL2 body balances well with the 50/0.95 and 75/1.25.
You should try this combination in a store if you have a chance (might have to bring your own Noctiluxes ...).

The best solution to achieve predictable focus is to use a SL50/1.4 instead and use AF.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

The best solution to achieve predictable focus is to use a SL50/1.4 instead and use AF.

Not sure about that. I have the SL Summilux as well, the AF with this lens on my SL2-S is so slow that Noctilux f/0.95 with M-to-L adapter may be faster ...

[tom0511]

to op ... I wouldn't want to carry M and x2d together, or use x2d as a "second" body together with a M.

so in your case I would rather buy a second M body or a SL2(s) for more accurate focus of your Noctilux lenses.

Still, as a user of both systems, I believe that the sensor of the x2d does have some advantages over the FF M11 sensor. Color being one of them.

[tom0511]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb mzbe:

Not sure about that. I have the SL Summilux as well, the AF with this lens on my SL2-S is so slow that Noctilux f/0.95 with M-to-L adapter may be faster ...

For my part I sold my 50/0.95- loved the IQ and bokeh, but too often had slightly OOF images, specially when taking images of people. slightes movement and the eye would not be in perfect focus. I feel to get a higher success rate with AF and face detection.

And yes, there are lenses which focus faster than the big Summilux. However the rendering is great, and for me/ my intended use its fast enough, I can not focus faster with a manual lens.

[S Maclean]

i have a M11 and a X2d and love the combo.  If you do get a second Leica body (other than the monochrome) I would go with an S or SL.

 

That said, the X2d is an amazing performer and a joy to use.  Autofocus is not the fastest but if you're used to manual you can always use manual and then refine from there.

X2d does perform well with the Leica 50 APo, the 90 Apo and the 75 CV...

[WvE]

I like to stick to one camera and, preferably, one lens only. My experience is that you get better at operating your camera which ultimately leads to better photographs. Unless buying and selling is your hobby, try to avoid getting lured into buying better stuff. Instead, focus on improving your photography and you'll be a happier photographer (and don't forget to print your photos). Yes, I know, it's a cliche...  

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Hallo,

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