M11 Mono YouTubers VS Magnum Photographers

[Chuck Albertson]

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12 hours ago, otto.f said:

In the Netherlands there’s a photojournalist who won severeal Dutch rewards for his work, mainly in war situations. He stil works with an M4. 

That's Eddy van Wessel. He may still carry an M4, but since he has to file daily for the publications he shoots for, he uses a Monochrom (forget which one) most of the time.

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[Yaniel]

13 hours ago, LeicaTobin said:

No one is actually saying anything with the images. I remember in 2012 when Magnum Photographer Jacob Aue Sobol was the face of the campaign for the first Monochrom with his Arrivals and Departures project. His images had something to say and the vehicle for that message was how he used the mono and his strong connections to the subjects he met along his amazing train journey. Leica did a wonderful job at making a series of small artistic films that made you want to see the world in black and white.

Those videos were important for the first Monochrom to show people why they'd want a black and white camera in the first place. The images taken with that first Monochrom will be similar to the images taken with every Monochrom since then. The major difference between the models are the form factor, megapixels, dynamic range, and ISO range. I bet the images that Sobol took in those videos will look similar to the images he'd take with the M11M, which from a marketing perspective begs the questions "Why should I buy the M11M instead of an older Monochrom if the images look the same?" The true differentiator is that we have a lot more resolution to work with today and a lot more dynamic range and ISO which are the specs most YouTubers are focusing on. Personally, I don't need to see great images in a review to consider it a good review. I know most cameras can produce beautiful photos, so what I care about are the features and ergonomics. 

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think another side of it is that many higher end artists are probably not as interested in being associated with a particular brand. During my MFA we met with several Magnum people at their studios, and at the time Fuji had sent them all GFX's. Some liked them, some didn't, but I don't recall any of them being in a big campaign for Fuji. Certainly in their work out in the world they don't bring up the cameras they are using very often, unless there is the characteristic that they want to convey (like it being large format film or something). But I have never heard a gallerist say "well, so and so uses a Leica monochrom". I am sure it happens, but not as often as some might like to think.

Ralph Gibson promotes the Monochrom.

[jaapv]

16 minutes ago, Yaniel said:

Those videos were important for the first Monochrom to show people why they'd want a black and white camera in the first place. The images taken with that first Monochrom will be similar to the images taken with every Monochrom since then. The major difference between the models are the form factor, megapixels, dynamic range, and ISO range. I bet the images that Sobol took in those videos will look similar to the images he'd take with the M11M, which from a marketing perspective begs the questions "Why should I buy the M11M instead of an older Monochrom if the images look the same?" The true differentiator is that we have a lot more resolution to work with today and a lot more dynamic range and ISO which are the specs most YouTubers are focusing on. Personally, I don't need to see great images in a review to consider it a good review. I know most cameras can produce beautiful photos, so what I care about are the features and ergonomics. 

The Sobol images are heavily processed to stark B&W. I never understood that Leica used them for promoting the camera. Good as they are, they don't show off the capabilities of the camera.

[pgh]

Andre Wagner - who Leica used in their M11 email blast - is a talented street photographer in New York, and I was happy them recognize him, but it also looked like he had an afternoon to shoot with the M11. I’m sure he’d make good work with it if he adopts it as his main tool, but it wouldn’t really be any different than with a 262. It’s already been said but in general Leica is just absurdly out of reach for most working photographers. Heck, the only reason I have a digital one is I got lucky and married someone who has a different career and supports mine as both work and a passion. Otherwise it would be a straight up stupid financial decision as a freelancer. 
But yea, in general, I haven’t seen Leica handing their cameras to photographers and artists of interest - that said, canon and nikon ambassadors hardly do any better. The sort of thing that sells cameras isn’t the sort of thing that tends to stand the rest of time. 

[pgh]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The Sobol images are heavily processed to stark B&W. I never understood that Leica used them for promoting the camera. Good as they are, they don't show off the capabilities of the camera.

It’s generally better to show something good over something mediocre. Leica trades on aspiration, as do all luxury brands. I don’t know anyone who aspires towards a perfectly exposed but perfectly boring picture no matter how amazing the tonal range is. 

[jaapv]

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I don't mind - I was totally not interested in a Monochrom camera - actually I thought it made no sense-, until Jono let me use his at the presentation in Berlin. I loaded the files into my laptop that evening and called Meister Camera the next morning

[colint544]

4 hours ago, Mike Rawcs said:

They should loan you the Camera, Colin.

Very kind, Mike - thank you. I should be so lucky.

[sometimesmaybe]

3 hours ago, pgh said:

I don’t know anyone who aspires towards a perfectly exposed

sometimes i do wonder by the way some carry on about their need for MORE sharpness, resolution and DR etc

a good portion of us (myself included) can prob be better described as gear-tographers 😏

[SoarFM]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

Ralph Gibson promotes the Monochrom.

I think I once heard or read something to the effect that it matched or exceeded the look he was getting with film, without the film hassle. And that marked the day he stopped shooting film.

Can't say I ever loved the darkroom, but man, I loved the print.

The camera is a tool.

Even a guy like me likes using a fine tool even if my efforts are of no interest to anyone but myself or my family.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by SoarFM

[otto.f]

11 hours ago, Chuck Albertson said:

That's Eddy van Wessel. He may still carry an M4, but since he has to file daily for the publications he shoots for, he uses a Monochrom (forget which one) most of the time.

Right, so that’s changing or adding an M in more than 30 years, which was the original philosophy of Leica’s; repair-culture. 

[jonnyboy]

You can't compare Youtubers to actual Magnum photographers... but I agree, the coverage for this M11 Mono has been one of the worst.
I'm mixed feeling about seeing Andre Wagner as one of the 'ambassador' (is this what they calling it these days?!), if you been following him he doesn't really shoot digital, he's tri-x and M6.... good move for Leica, I'm not sure if it was a smart decision for Andre.

 

 

 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, SoarFM said:

I think I once heard or read something to the effect that it matched or exceeded the look he was getting with film, without the film hassle. And that marked the day he stopped shooting film.

Can't say I ever loved the darkroom, but man, I loved the print.

The camera is a tool.

Even a guy like me likes using a fine tool even if my efforts are of no interest to anyone but myself or my family.

 

That is exactly what he told me when I met him at a presentation.

[charlesphoto99]

Well, as usual, the shots I’m seeing from many of those rush right out early adopters may as well have been taken with an iPhone. No extra dynamic range, megapixels, etc etc can make a photographer better. It can make for an easier to use camera, and a nice match for existing M11 owners, but we’re well beyond the point that better tech can in any way make for better photographs, no matter who you are. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by charlesphoto99

[geotrupede]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:44 PM, jaapv said:

The Sobol images are heavily processed to stark B&W. I never understood that Leica used them for promoting the camera. Good as they are, they don't show off the capabilities of the camera.

I humbly disagree. Trying to do the same with a colour file is pretty impossible. The beauty of the linear files from the MM1 is that they allow that type of editing without resulting in crappy greys. Using glass filters is also a superior result that mixing channels when in combination with such aggressive editing. 

Now, "straight out of the camera' did never exist in film times... why would it be important with digital?  

That is why I believe that general tests presenting the MMn capabilities with unedited images are pointless. And that is why having a stylistic approach much more informative.

But then again, just my opinion.

G.

 

[jaapv]

Errrm..Where did I say “straight out of the camera “ or “unedited “? I said “ capabilities of the camera “ which rather suggests editing to the maximum tonality. 

[tom.w.bn]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb geotrupede:

I humbly disagree. Trying to do the same with a colour file is pretty impossible. The beauty of the linear files from the MM1 is that they allow that type of editing without resulting in crappy greys. Using glass filters is also a superior result that mixing channels when in combination with such aggressive editing. 

....

 

The images of Jacob Aue Sobol are super contrasty and reduced to extreme blacks and whites. When I remember right, he used a flash for close up people shots which increases the contrasty look. I think he could have used any decent camera of the time of the original monochrom launch to achieve these images.

[geotrupede]

I am not sure, I really have tried hard but with colour files, once you adjust the gamma, push the contrast all breaks down and in some light situation the results are large dark grey patches, without any gradient, but bands of grey.

Have you tried with a dark blue filter? Or a dark red one? With BW sensor all good. But with colour is mayhem. And if you do it with a channel mixer even worse.

Indeed he uses a small Leica flash. With BW, when light is not spectacular, you need to bring your own as there is nothing else but light to play with 😉 

G.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[geotrupede]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Errrm..Where did I say “straight out of the camera “ or “unedited “? I said “ capabilities of the camera “ which rather suggests editing to the maximum tonality. 

You are right.

All I meant is that resolution and tone mapping could be measured from specs in a more direct way, while the editing latitude is a little more to learn from, perhaps to do also with the right tools and expertise (as mentioned I find really hard to get the same out of a colour file than from an MM one, but that could be me being the bottleneck).  Seeing Sobol was like 'look at how cool work can be achieved with this camera, with full creative control'.

In the end, how nice would it be to have one of these each, and keep disagreeing but happily shooting [here is dreaming only]!

😉

[jaapv]

The interesting thing is that images from the over a decade old M9M still trigger this type of critique from NPN (*)

Jaapv,

Excellent b&w landscapte!  Literally my first impression is excellent tonal range and how this would print beautifully in that traditional darkroom and printing process.  From my old camera club days when many had their own darkrooms and printing... and to the concept or "rule" of good prints to have "white whites and black blacks."  This just has great contrast and tonal range.
 

(*) Nature Photographers Network.