ISO performance on SL2-s vs SL2

[kobra]

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2 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

Great posts and info about the DR of the two SL (and S) cameras. I found myself having to use amy friends GND filter on the APO SL 35 yesterday. It's the problem with clouds higher up in the frame while the foreground and subject are in the shadows. I call it a "shadow pit". The sun is moving in and out of clouds above and behind so managing the exposures can be tricky. The clouds are going to clip most of the time as they have the brightest illumination compared to the foreground and subject. I have a clipping limit set marginally below 255 so if I see a bit of clipping I know I am in the ball park. 

The 0.6 GND sorted the issue out for the SL2 however my friend mentioned how he gets clipping on his SL2 while his S2 (which is set up in the same shooting position) does not show clipping. My M10M does not show clipping in the same scene like the SL2. Given that the range of luminance in the scene is vast I have always managed to get a good exposures on the SL 601 and M10M using with M lenses.  I am already looking into another filter system for the Apo SL 35 because I love shooting with this lens.  Otherwise I could just purchase the SL2s and alternate the cameras like some have said above.

This image has had a fair bit of post processing but I like the dramatic/surreal look and my clouds must have usable detail  

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Great image @Ken Abrahams , and I really like the end result!

So, maybe a dumb question, won't exposure bracketing accomplish a similar result for this scenario? It's so easy to change to that in camera, then do an HDR merge in post... or am I missing something? Thanks!

Brad

 

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[davidmknoble]

2 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

Great posts and info about the DR of the two SL (and S) cameras. I found myself having to use amy friends GND filter on the APO SL 35 yesterday. It's the problem with clouds higher up in the frame while the foreground and subject are in the shadows. I call it a "shadow pit". The sun is moving in and out of clouds above and behind so managing the exposures can be tricky. The clouds are going to clip most of the time as they have the brightest illumination compared to the foreground and subject. I have a clipping limit set marginally below 255 so if I see a bit of clipping I know I am in the ball park. 

The 0.6 GND sorted the issue out for the SL2 however my friend mentioned how he gets clipping on his SL2 while his S2 (which is set up in the same shooting position) does not show clipping. My M10M does not show clipping in the same scene like the SL2. Given that the range of luminance in the scene is vast I have always managed to get a good exposures on the SL 601 and M10M using with M lenses.  I am already looking into another filter system for the Apo SL 35 because I love shooting with this lens.  Otherwise I could just purchase the SL2s and alternate the cameras like some have said above.

@Ken Abrahams you hit the nail on the head.  The only way to reduce really high dynamic ranges is to adjust the light, and the GND filers allow us to do that for part of the image. Of course we know that this is exactly what the film photographers used to do as well. I use both the Schneider and Breakthrough filter systems on the SL and the S (including R lenses on the SL) and probably the 2 stop filters are my most used (0.6) as they don't over-darken the scene.  Nice shot!

[davidmknoble]

4 minutes ago, kobra said:

Great image @Ken Abrahams , and I really like the end result!

So, maybe a dumb question, won't exposure bracketing accomplish a similar result for this scenario? It's so easy to change to that in camera, then do an HDR merge in post... or am I missing something? Thanks!

Brad

 

Brad, that only works in a static scene.  When clouds move, objects move, etc. then it is very difficult to merge the HDR images.  It also requires a tripod or ledge or something to prevent the image from moving around (if you don't want it cropped).  If you go to that much trouble, using a filter system is a simple add on.  Most HDR images show interior architectural shots because nothing moves!  Some will say that the computer AI is so much better that it can fix the clouds and other small movement issues, but I prefer more control over my images..

If in doubt, try some images with the ocean using HDR..

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

Great posts and info about the DR of the two SL (and S) cameras. I found myself having to use amy friends GND filter on the APO SL 35 yesterday. It's the problem with clouds higher up in the frame while the foreground and subject are in the shadows. I call it a "shadow pit". The sun is moving in and out of clouds above and behind so managing the exposures can be tricky. The clouds are going to clip most of the time as they have the brightest illumination compared to the foreground and subject. I have a clipping limit set marginally below 255 so if I see a bit of clipping I know I am in the ball park. 

The 0.6 GND sorted the issue out for the SL2 however my friend mentioned how he gets clipping on his SL2 while his S2 (which is set up in the same shooting position) does not show clipping. My M10M does not show clipping in the same scene like the SL2. Given that the range of luminance in the scene is vast I have always managed to get a good exposures on the SL 601 and M10M using with M lenses.  I am already looking into another filter system for the Apo SL 35 because I love shooting with this lens.  Otherwise I could just purchase the SL2s and alternate the cameras like some have said above.

This image has had a fair bit of post processing but I like the dramatic/surreal look and my clouds must have usable detail  

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The metering between cameras differs. That is what sometimes causes clipping and sometimes doesn't. BTW, the clipping on the camera's LCD does not mean clipping in the raw file.

Any clipping can be solved by applying negative EC.

For shadow noise, you should try using something like DxO PureRAW.

[Ken Abrahams]

2 hours ago, kobra said:

Great image @Ken Abrahams , and I really like the end result!

So, maybe a dumb question, won't exposure bracketing accomplish a similar result for this scenario? It's so easy to change to that in camera, then do an HDR merge in post... or am I missing something? Thanks!

Brad

 

Normally it would easy to combine different exposures as you say Brad but the subject is moving pretty fast which makes aligning  images impossible . 
Ken 

[Ken Abrahams]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

The metering between cameras differs. That is what sometimes causes clipping and sometimes doesn't. BTW, the clipping on the camera's LCD does not mean clipping in the raw file.

Any clipping can be solved by applying negative EC.

For shadow noise, you should try using something like DxO PureRAW.

I am resisting such software programs and aiming to get it as best as I can in camera SrMi. The clipping warning is all we have to gauge overexposure in the sky but I’m okay with a bit here and there from experience. The scene has big white clouds which are brightly lit by the Sun where as on the ground and in the trees it is dark and flat by comparison. If I am hand holding the camera I give a plus 1/3 while pointing camera at clouds for exposure lock. Which is essentially exposure compensation and the rest gets worked in PS. The train is usually quite forgiving with increments and using masks while there is less latitude in the clouds. One way or other I get my exposures as good as they’re going to get in these situations and at other times the sun comes out gives joy. 

[kobra]

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3 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Brad, that only works in a static scene.  When clouds move, objects move, etc. then it is very difficult to merge the HDR images.  It also requires a tripod or ledge or something to prevent the image from moving around (if you don't want it cropped).  If you go to that much trouble, using a filter system is a simple add on.  Most HDR images show interior architectural shots because nothing moves!  Some will say that the computer AI is so much better that it can fix the clouds and other small movement issues, but I prefer more control over my images..

If in doubt, try some images with the ocean using HDR..

Thanks @davidmknoble and @Ken Abrahams - I appreciate the comments and helping me understand...

Background; as I switched over from Fuji X (aps-c) to SL system, I began to realize a lot of other accessories no longer work, including my filters. Since my lens kit for landscapes includes the Leica 16-35, 24-70 and 90-280 along with the Sigma 20 ART, I realize they all take 82mm filters. So, I purchased a set of round Kase filters with magnetic holders for CPL and ND's. But, of course, there are no graduated ND filters in that round set. Likely I will rebuy some ND grads, but trying to avoid the extra holder and square filters as long as possible!

What is interesting to me, in the context of this thread, is how the SL2 may still have some issues at base ISO in demanding DR situations as noted above. I'm still "all in" on the SL system right now, but in the "2nd gen" SL bodies, it seems you need to get both in order to cover off the needs of general photography; the SL2 for the high resolution/large prints/ability to crop, and the SL2-S for more flexibility in variety of light while losing the advantages of the higher resolution... 

C'mon SL3! Hurry up and solve all our problems, so we don't have to carry both bodies everywhere, or choose which baby we like better! 

Brad

[davidmknoble]

Here is one with the SL2-S from today, the Leica 16-35.  Yes, I felt like playing with the sunset filter in the middle of the day to see what I could capture..   The key is, that I feel like I got a good dynamic range and was able to use about 1/2 second exposure. (click to see full resolution).

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[kobra]

59 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

Here is one with the SL2-S from today, the Leica 16-35.  Yes, I felt like playing with the sunset filter in the middle of the day to see what I could capture..   The key is, that I feel like I got a good dynamic range and was able to use about 1/2 second exposure. (click to see full resolution).

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Thanks @davidmknoble  - great image!

I have questions about filters, but don't want to clutter this thread; if I don't find anything in a search, I will start a new thread. 

Brad

 

[BernardC]

19 hours ago, kobra said:

What is interesting to me, in the context of this thread, is how the SL2 may still have some issues at base ISO in demanding DR situations as noted above.

The simplest way to get more headroom, and keep highlights from clipping, is to shoot at a higher ISO. Base ISO, or "extended base" ISO 50, is a lot like slide film. You highlight range is very limited.

[davidmknoble]

36 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The simplest way to get more headroom, and keep highlights from clipping, is to shoot at a higher ISO. Base ISO, or "extended base" ISO 50, is a lot like slide film. You highlight range is very limited.

Yet the ISO 100 is the highest dynamic range, I disagree that 'higher ISO's' are the answer.  The true base ISO of the sensor has the highest range and in this case, the base iso is not 50, the lowest iso is 50.

It also has to do with shadow recovery, not just blown highlights.

Just my 2 cents...

Edited April 10, 2023 by davidmknoble

[cj3209]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:28 AM, Ken Abrahams said:

Great posts and info about the DR of the two SL (and S) cameras. I found myself having to use amy friends GND filter on the APO SL 35 yesterday. It's the problem with clouds higher up in the frame while the foreground and subject are in the shadows. I call it a "shadow pit". The sun is moving in and out of clouds above and behind so managing the exposures can be tricky. The clouds are going to clip most of the time as they have the brightest illumination compared to the foreground and subject. I have a clipping limit set marginally below 255 so if I see a bit of clipping I know I am in the ball park. 

The 0.6 GND sorted the issue out for the SL2 however my friend mentioned how he gets clipping on his SL2 while his S2 (which is set up in the same shooting position) does not show clipping. My M10M does not show clipping in the same scene like the SL2. Given that the range of luminance in the scene is vast I have always managed to get a good exposures on the SL 601 and M10M using with M lenses.  I am already looking into another filter system for the Apo SL 35 because I love shooting with this lens.  Otherwise I could just purchase the SL2s and alternate the cameras like some have said above.

This image has had a fair bit of post processing but I like the dramatic/surreal look and my clouds must have usable detail  

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I apologize for my ignorance (I started serious photography using a trusty Nikon FE2 in college) but I don't quite understand the need for filters as I would just do a -2 EC (or meter bracket) and post process in PS.

[Ken Abrahams]

1 hour ago, cj3209 said:

I apologize for my ignorance (I started serious photography using a trusty Nikon FE2 in college) but I don't quite understand the need for filters as I would just do a -2 EC (or meter bracket) and post process in PS.

The train sometimes travels at 130 K but at crossings it’s about 50 kph. Not only does the shutter speed need to be around 1/800 sec I am also shooting high continuous mode to capture train in  a  desired framing. Over the years one gets familiar with exposures and to fine tune them on the day. Given that the train loco has a headlamp and usually the brightest part of the image , I allow for -1/3–2/3 negative compensation but only in clear bright sun light. Train photography, you should try it 😀

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

The simplest way to get more headroom, and keep highlights from clipping, is to shoot at a higher ISO. Base ISO, or "extended base" ISO 50, is a lot like slide film. You highlight range is very limited.

ISO 50 is tricky and best avoided or carefully exposed.

However, you cannot prevent highlights from clipping by shooting above ISO100. Only a change of exposure can fix highlight clipping.

[BernardC]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

However, you cannot prevent highlights from clipping by shooting above ISO100. Only a change of exposure can fix highlight clipping.

It depends who you believe. There's a crowd-sourced "sensor testing" site that claims you will lose nearly a stop of DR for every stop of ISO (which makes very little sense if you think about it), however Arri, who design their own sensors, says that this isn't the case.

It's easy enough to test: shoot one image at ISO 100 with "-1 EV" of compensation, and another at ISO 200 with no compensation. Both images receive the same exposure (shutter speed, aperture). They either have the same DR, or not. I've done the test and know the result, but it's better if you try it yourself.

[SrMi]

26 minutes ago, BernardC said:

It depends who you believe. There's a crowd-sourced "sensor testing" site that claims you will lose nearly a stop of DR for every stop of ISO (which makes very little sense if you think about it), however Arri, who design their own sensors, says that this isn't the case.

It's easy enough to test: shoot one image at ISO 100 with "-1 EV" of compensation, and another at ISO 200 with no compensation. Both images receive the same exposure (shutter speed, aperture). They either have the same DR, or not. I've done the test and know the result, but it's better if you try it yourself.

Video cameras like Arri are different from still cameras. Therefore, the recommendation for Arri cannot be mapped to SL2.

I think it is best to believe your own eyes. I have never seen better highlight retention when increasing ISO (except ISO 50 or non-native ISOs). Highlight retention/clipping is unrelated to DR.

ISO does not determine the DR/noise*. Exposure does! Lowering ISO allows more exposure, increasing DR and reducing SNR (visible noise).

If you keep the exposure the same and vary ISO, you may see no difference in DR/noise if you are in the ISO-invariant range (typically above the "bump"). However, as you increase ISO, the chance to clip highlights increases.

*Increase in ISO can trigger dual-conversion gain and/or reduce read noise, but the main factor for DR remains exposure.

 

 

[BernardC]

16 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Video cameras like Arri are different from still cameras. Therefore, the recommendation for Arri cannot be mapped to SL2.

In what way? All mainstream sensors do video these days, even the M11 which doesn't let you save video, but still shows video in live view.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, BernardC said:

In what way? All mainstream sensors do video these days, even the M11 which doesn't let you save video, but still shows video in live view.

M11, SL2, Sony, Nikon, etc, use dual conversion gain sensors. Arris and other video cameras use dual output gain sensors. See this article:

What is dual gain and how does it work?

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[hansvons]

I use both, the Alexa and the SL2-S. I find them quite similar in terms of exposure and DR. My working ISO is on both cameras ISO 800. I like some texture but hate blown highlights, as this makes images looking video-ish. YMMV, of course.

[SrMi]

32 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I use both, the Alexa and the SL2-S. I find them quite similar in terms of exposure and DR. My working ISO is on both cameras ISO 800. I like some texture but hate blown highlights, as this makes images looking video-ish. YMMV, of course.

L-log video shooting is different from still photography. With L-log, does ISO 800 correspond to ISO 100 in still mode? I notice that the lowest ISO for L-Log is ISO 400 (the lowest ISO in Photo mode is ISO 50).

Always shooting in the Photo mode with a minimum ISO of 800 is like using an m43 instead of a FF sensor: wasteful (2 stops difference). Blown highlights in still photography are caused by metering. I have not noticed that meeting changes when increasing ISO.