Pitting Leica M6 TTL - how much less?

[nitroplait]

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Just to be clear. I am not a potential buyer.

He is asking me advise on the pricing and he was surprise how much importance I attributed to the zinc pitting issue.

I don't exactly know how it is kept, but he has a receipt dated 2000 and has used it quite a bit except for the last few years. It does not smell musty, meter is accurate, operation, shutter and curtains looks and sounds healthy.

If I was in the market for a M6TTL I would consider it if it wasn't for the top plate.

Like most people here, I wouldn't even consider it as is, but on the other hand; some people swear to the mantra "it is just a tool". And if that is the case, this camera fits the bill.

I guess that a fair price would be the going rate of a M6TTL minus the price of a clean top plate - they seem to be available NOS for around $600.

If he doesn't understand my argument, I'll refer him to this thread 😉 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by nitroplait

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[Fotoklaus]

Put the camera to Ebay, describe everything honest and wait for the result.

That's it.

[pgk]

17 minutes ago, nitroplait said:

It does not smell musty, meter is accurate, operation, shutter and curtains looks and sounds healthy.

I guess that a fair price would be the going rate of a M6TTL minus the price of a clean top plate - they seem to be available NOS for around $600.

Buying ANY used camera unseen is a risk. Even apparently 'pristine' cameras can have problems (stored too hot, stored too cold, too damp, in the sun, etc..).

Yes, 'new' top plates aren't cheap. That said many will buy a less than pristine camera to use and top plate pitting won't bother them because it simply means the same camera for less money. I'd be in this category for the most part. In fact one of my M9s was dirt cheap because it has a dent. It also had a 12 month repair warranty from Leica themselves and has proven to be a thoroughly reliable workhorse although it is far from pristine. This does not bother me in the slightest.

If I were your friend I'd knock off a reasonable amount, describe it accurately and see what happens. If it doesn't sell it can always have the price lowered until it does.

[nitroplait]

38 minutes ago, Fotoklaus said:

Put the camera to Ebay, describe everything honest and wait for the result.

That's it.

He doesn't have a ebay history, so he can't really expect the market to decide that way - people are reluctant to bid on valuable things from sellers with zero feedback.

He does however live in a large metropolitan area, so selling in-person through local classifieds is a realistic approach, and he just needs to set a reasonable price to get some attention.

[Steve Ricoh]

Someone on Photrio wanted a Leica for $10… I think this is the sort of buyer your friend would attract.

[250swb]

1 hour ago, nitroplait said:

Just to be clear. I am not a potential buyer.

He is asking me advise on the pricing and he was surprise how much importance I attributed to the zinc pitting issue.

I don't exactly know how it is kept, but he has a receipt dated 2000 and has used it quite a bit except for the last few years. It does not smell musty, meter is accurate, operation, shutter and curtains looks and sounds healthy.

If I was in the market for a M6TTL I would consider it if it wasn't for the top plate.

Like most people here, I wouldn't even consider it as is, but on the other hand; some people swear to the mantra "it is just a tool". And if that is the case, this camera fits the bill.

I guess that a fair price would be the going rate of a M6TTL minus the price of a clean top plate - they seem to be available NOS for around $600.

If he doesn't understand my argument, I'll refer him to this thread 😉 

 

So really it's all down to how you decided how bad the pitting is and how you've described it. A photograph would have helped. One persons 'bad' is another persons 'par for the course'. There isn't a massive reduction in the price of an M6 with normal age related pitting issues yet this thread is in danger of suggesting your friend gives it away sight unseen. So I wouldn't tell your friend anything that's been said in this thread due to hysteria and suggest he takes it or sends it to a respected camera dealer for possible sale or sale on commission. 

Edited March 18, 2023 by 250swb

[Huss]

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It would be nice to post a pic of the camera so we can see what the condition really is like.

[Huss]

8 hours ago, nitroplait said:

.. but on the other hand; some people swear to the mantra "it is just a tool". And if that is the case, this camera fits the bill...

 

Unless they are professional photographers who do not pay for their gear out of their own pockets, I find that those who say that use it to make themselves feel better after they dropped their once perfect condition camera.

There is a difference between wear and tear i.e. 'patina' from use.  Resulting in brassed edges etc.  And a camera basically rusting.  People who use 'tools' do not want rusty tools.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

And a camera basically rusting.  People who use 'tools' do not want rusty tools.

But it isn’t rusting, fake news. Pitting is down to impurities in the zinc when it is cast, rust is ….. oh well if you don’t know what rust is forget the explanation.

But many zinc top M6 cameras have some pitting whether silver chrome or black chrome, it makes no difference how the camera was kept or how it has been used, it is just pot luck. And it’s a big problem if your standards for buying a camera are wanting something mint, but equally not much of a problem (given it is only cosmetic) if you want a user camera. 

[Mute-on]

10 minutes ago, 250swb said:

But it isn’t rusting, fake news. Pitting is down to impurities in the zinc when it is cast, rust is ….. oh well if you don’t know what rust is forget the explanation.

But many zinc top M6 cameras have some pitting whether silver chrome or black chrome, it makes no difference how the camera was kept or how it has been used, it is just pot luck. And it’s a big problem if your standards for buying a camera are wanting something mint, but equally not much of a problem (given it is only cosmetic) if you want a user camera. 

Exactly!

It’s not at all like a rusty car, and should in no way be compared to a neglected tool.  It has no better or worse prospect of poor mechanical condition than any other M6 that, we assume, has not been dropped, dented, handled roughly, or otherwise abused.

In principle, this example ought to be worth exactly the price of a cosmetically mint M6 TTL (yes, we all know that is no guarantee of good mechanical condition) less the price of a new top plate and the cost to instal it. In reality, if it’s in excellent working condition with a recent service, it’s probably a better prospect as is than 50% of M6s (or any earlier film Ms) on the market. 
 

However since we have no verification of the actual cosmetic or mechanical condition of @nitroplait ‘s friend’s camera, this is all moot, really. 

[Huss]

Sounds like we have some people w rusty kameras!

 

😜

[earleygallery]

Some very odd responses on here, given that this is a known issue. Maybe some are hoping to convince your friend to sell for peanuts and they can grab a bargain!

The pitting doesn't affect all M6's but it's a purely cosmetic issue and as Steve said, isn't rust or signs of poor storage.

The price will be down to overall condition - it might be a well worn example with a few dents and scratches, or it might be an otherwise mint example. I would offer it at a price based on comparable examples after searching ebay and dealer websites. FWIW I'd say unless it's a really nice example (apart from the pitting) the pitting isn't really going to make a lot of difference in value.

[BradS]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

But it isn’t rusting. Pitting is down to impurities in the zinc when it is cast, rust is ….. oh well if you don’t know what rust is forget the explanation.

But many zinc top M6 cameras have some pitting whether silver chrome or black chrome, it makes no difference how the camera was kept or how it has been used, it is just pot luck.

 

The Leica zinc-zits are the result of corrosion or oxidation are they not? and rust is? oxidation - right?

So it does seem like kinda the same thing just different metals.

Surely, environmental conditions have an effect.

Edited March 18, 2023 by BradS

[Huss]

Indeed.  The term 'rust' is used as a generalization.  We all know rust as a chemical reaction between iron and oxygen, often catalyzed with salts.

The zinc pitting/zits/corrosion is a similar chemical reaction between the zinc and whatever other substrate or chemical.  And it is something that should not happen.

Does it effect the camera usage?  No.  Should you care?  Up to you.   Would I care?  Yes, because I'd buy one that didn't rust...  There are plenty zit free M6s out there.

[250swb]

8 hours ago, BradS said:

 

The Leica zinc-zits are the result of corrosion or oxidation are they not? and rust is? oxidation - right?

So it does seem like kinda the same thing just different metals.

Surely, environmental conditions have an effect.

I think it's obvious 'rust' was used in this case as an emotive term to ratchet up feelings about a few zits on a camera body. I don't know where the inclination comes from to try and devalue a lot of photographers cameras which have zits by downgrading them further, but 'rust' implies an ongoing process and the camera must have been misused and may have other problems. The evidence is here in this thread, people have commented about the issue and wrongly assumed misuse. None of my zinc top Leica's have zits, but if they did I'd be pretty annoyed if somebody comes along and makes a concerted effort to chop a few hundred more dollars off the value. There are a lot of photographers who want to use Leica's and they don't have pockets of money to show off with, and while an M6 with zits may not be perfect cosmetically they can still work as efficiently as one without, and owners don't deserve being kicked in the nuts by snobbish attitudes. The camera with zits may have been kept in a humidity controlled cabinet from new, or it may be somebody's first second hand Leica purchase, but branding them as thoughtless owners because of something that isn't in their control is taking it too far. This is how bogus Leica myths start, it needs stopping.

[wattsy]

21 hours ago, 250swb said:

So I wouldn't tell your friend anything that's been said in this thread due to hysteria and suggest he takes it or sends it to a respected camera dealer

Quite. I've found the best way to reduce the level of hysteria in both this thread and the film camera section more generally is just to use the ignore function. Much nicer without all the shrill noise.

[Steve Ricoh]

23 hours ago, 250swb said:

So really it's all down to how you decided how bad the pitting is and how you've described it. A photograph would have helped. One persons 'bad' is another persons 'par for the course'. There isn't a massive reduction in the price of an M6 with normal age related pitting issues yet this thread is in danger of suggesting your friend gives it away sight unseen. So I wouldn't tell your friend anything that's been said in this thread due to hysteria and suggest he takes it or sends it to a respected camera dealer for possible sale or sale on commission. 

I doubt a ‘respected camera dealer’ would touch it with a barge pole. Doing so would lead to questioning, viz what other shit is the dealer passing off. Just my view, we all have an opinion so don’t knock it.

[Pyrogallol]

If he doesn’t want it, give it to me.

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[pgk]

17 hours ago, Huss said:

Unless they are professional photographers who do not pay for their gear out of their own pockets, I find that those who say that use it to make themselves feel better after they dropped their once perfect condition camera.

There is a difference between wear and tear i.e. 'patina' from use.  Resulting in brassed edges etc.  And a camera basically rusting.  People who use 'tools' do not want rusty tools.

Firstly, most rofessional photographers are reasonably careful with their gear but, as it is in constant use, it will get a 'patina' of wear and occasional knocks. But it is a myth that professional photographers mistreat gear if they don't pay for it. Apart from anything else, if gear fails in the middle of a shoot questions would be asked if it had been abused.

Lack of use and poor storage are a result of neglect. Storage in damp conditions causes lots of problems the most significant of which is fungus and this can be too expensive to remove.

Lastly, pitting due to impurities in the zinc is not 'rust'! It is not exacerbated by damp (how can it be?) and will not affect the camera in any way other than cosmetic appearance. I once ownd such an M6 which of course worked perfectly.

[Steve Ricoh]

God damn the supernova that forged zinc! 😊