Chris W Posted March 2, 2023 Share #1 Posted March 2, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Why can't someone make one? I happened upon the raw DGN files from my old Epson RD-1s the other day and was struck by how lovely they looked. I bought the camera new when it was launched. I sold it because the rangefinder went out of calibration twice in a couple of years. It wasn't a straight forward adjustment. I took it to my local Voigtlander dealer who calibrated it both times. On the second occasion he said he wouldn't calibrate it again and as Epson had just discontinued the camera he filled me with dread about what I'd do if anything else went wrong. So I sold it. All it did was take great photos using M mount lenses with rangefinder focussing. No video, no plethora of function buttons and joy sticks etc. All week I've been struggling to get accurate colours out of my M240, with a foreign holiday coming soon. I guess a very much more expensive M10R is an alternative, although some people say the images look more clinical. The Pixii has a crop sensor, which I accepted on the Epson as it was the dawn of digital photography, but having owned a few full frame cameras now, I don't want to go back. The M11 is out of my budget, but a few 'influencers' are already on to their third bodies after tech failures. Why can't someone make a new RD-1s? It would be 24mp, full frame and all it does is take great pictures with accurate colours out of the box. I'm almost tempted to rebuy it, although I'd still have the issue of the fragile rangefinder mechanism and the crop sensor. If it was $500 not $2000 I might. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 2, 2023 Posted March 2, 2023 Hi Chris W, Take a look here The Perfect Digital Rangefinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wda Posted March 2, 2023 Share #2 Posted March 2, 2023 Have you considered making your own profile using a ColorChecker Passport, then fine-tune it to your satisfaction? If daunted by the prospect, Google and select a video or two to help you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
newtoleica Posted March 2, 2023 Share #3 Posted March 2, 2023 "Why can't someone make a new RD-1s? It would be 24mp, full frame and all it does is take great pictures with accurate colours out of the box......." Sounds like the M10-P to me...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom R Posted March 2, 2023 Share #4 Posted March 2, 2023 I suspect that the reason no one makes such a device is that marketing research shows that more profit is to be had by pursuing the current course. I don't believe for one New York minute that the needs of desires of real, living photographers enter into this equation. The entire photographic enterprise has been restructured to "modern" models of business. Such "business models" are abstract in the sense that the corporate officers are NOT conversant or interested, per se, in the product or service. They answer only to the "value" of the "business" as reflected by stockholders and other source of funding that demand constant profitability on a quarterly (or finer) basis. Take Lecia for example. As a long-time user of their cameras (I own only three analogue film bodies and one M8.2, with a suite of older Leica glass, ranging from 28 to 90mm), I have absolutely NO idea of how many Leica digital camera models exist, nor what, in particular, distinguishes one from the other And I can say the same thing about Leica glass. In sum: It's not enough that the customer purchase a Leica product. The customer must purchase virtually that same product every year or two in order to meet the demands of the contemporary market. Thus, the path you seek, however rational and reasonable, is simply not sufficiently profitable nor could it ever accelerate the consumer spend cycle that is the only religion of the current (and foreseeable) "market." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted March 2, 2023 Share #5 Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, wda said: Have you considered making your own profile using a ColorChecker Passport, then fine-tune it to your satisfaction? If daunted by the prospect, Google and select a video or two to help you. David - Have a look at this post of yours. Something seems to often cause a large number of "enters" after your text. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share #6 Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Tom R said: I suspect that the reason no one makes such a device is that marketing research shows that more profit is to be had by pursuing the current course. Of course you are right. I'm just venting my frustration. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 2, 2023 Author Share #7 Posted March 2, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) My own M240 profile? Sure. I'm not sure my lighting conditions are going to reflect the light in Southern France. Also, the images out of the RD-1s look great out of the box, why is the M240 more of a hassle? I actually got better results using the generic CDNG profile in CO1 than using their M240 profile. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted March 2, 2023 Share #8 Posted March 2, 2023 5 hours ago, stuny said: David - Have a look at this post of yours. Something seems to often cause a large number of "enters" after your text. Stuart, sorry. For unknown reasons, on my Galaxy tablet, I have problems posting my contributions. Unwanted carriage returns is just one annoyance. I have restarted several times, to no avail. In all other respects my device behaves normally. Please delete my extra lines, or my errant postings, if possible. I am using another machine for this post. thank you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom R Posted March 3, 2023 Share #9 Posted March 3, 2023 12 hours ago, Chris W said: Of course you are right. I'm just venting my frustration. And, unfortunately, being "right" in this case doesn't make any one feel any better ... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 4, 2023 Author Share #10 Posted March 4, 2023 Looking back at my RD-1s images I might have to rebuy it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 5, 2023 Author Share #11 Posted March 5, 2023 Subjectively the images out of my FP look more pleasing than out of my M240 and are much easier to work with. I just prefer the rangefinder way of focussing, or I wouldn't bother with an M style body. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/369656-the-perfect-digital-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4711548'>More sharing options...
lct Posted March 8, 2023 Share #12 Posted March 8, 2023 On 3/2/2023 at 10:35 AM, Chris W said: [...] I happened upon the raw DGN files from my old Epson RD-1s the other day and was struck by how lovely they looked. [...] All week I've been struggling to get accurate colours out of my M240 [...] Why can't someone make a new RD-1s? It would be 24mp, full frame and all it does is take great pictures with accurate colours out of the box. [...] Accurate colors are in the eye of the beholder but you may wish to try Iridient Developer which allows applying an R-D1 color profile to your M240 DNG files if you like that. I'll let you guess which is which below (M240, Summicron 28/2). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/369656-the-perfect-digital-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4714765'>More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share #13 Posted March 8, 2023 I can (and have) done that in Capture One. Both the generic DNG profile and the RD1s profiles in CO look better than their M240 profile. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansvons Posted March 8, 2023 Share #14 Posted March 8, 2023 C1 Pro Profiles are shot with a lens that is undisclosed. However, lenses affect colour rendition. Chances are high that they use a workhorse lens, eg latest Canon 24-70 on an R5. But what if you were using a vintage lense, or a Zeiss Otus that renders colours quite differently? I have no idea what lens they used on the M240. I’d assume a contemporary 35mm Summicron asph. But we don't know. Leica lenses from the 70ies and 80ies tend to render considerably colder than modern Leica glass. The odds are not low that the user will experience quite different colours than intended, given the plethora of M-mount lenses. Besides, the M240 is a relatively old camera, an oddball in the universe of digital cameras. Would I create its profiles with the same scrutiny as with the above-mentioned R5, which is a staple in professional photography? I don't think so. The advice to create your own profile makes sense. I did it for the SL2-S despite the fact that its Pro Profile works out of the box with the SL lenses (it's super close to the generic Leica profile). The reason why I created my own profile is that I’m not satisfied what C1/LR, or any other editor offer in terms of contrast. I want a fast pace when editing and don't want to adjust contrast for every shot anew. Besides, it's much easier and quicker to tone down contrast, eg bring back detail in the shadows, than adding contrast. That’s why I created a profile that adds the gamma curve of Kodak’s 2393 cine print film to the generic Leica SL2-S profile. Because I like very much what Leica does in terms of colour, I stripped the original curve off its colour matrix and used only the luminance information. That way, I now have a profile whose colours are Leica but the contrast is reminiscent of film. I use it 99% of the time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted March 8, 2023 Share #15 Posted March 8, 2023 You cannot beat a personal profile. And once it is done, import it with new files every time you add new image files to your catalog. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share #16 Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, hansvons said: I have no idea what lens they used on the M240. I’d assume a contemporary 35mm Summicron asph. But we don't know. Leica lenses from the 70ies and 80ies tend to render considerably colder than modern Leica glass. The odds are not low that the user will experience quite different colours than intended, given the plethora of M-mount lenses. Besides, the M240 is a relatively old camera, an oddball in the universe of digital cameras. Would I create its profiles with the same scrutiny as with the above-mentioned R5, which is a staple in professional photography? I don't think so. I presume the M240 profile was created when the camera was new. CO has been out a long time and certainly I was using it before the M240 was launched. There are multiple Leica lens profiles too. The RD1s profile on RD1s files looks good to me, and that is a very old camera with an undisclosed lens. Also the Sigma FP colours look great straight off the bat. the M240 is the one camera that I'm having to fiddle with to get the colours to look better (to me). vv M240, 35mm pre-asph f2 with CO M240 profile vv Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/369656-the-perfect-digital-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4715333'>More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share #17 Posted March 8, 2023 Same shot using the RD1s profile. Looks much better as a starting point to me. The M240 profile is very orange and green, which you can see those bumped in the histogram. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/369656-the-perfect-digital-rangefinder/?do=findComment&comment=4715335'>More sharing options...
lct Posted March 8, 2023 Share #18 Posted March 8, 2023 This feeling comes mainly from yellow IMHO. If you have Photoshop, you may wish to set yellow brightness to -10 more or less or try the same with yellow saturation. Not a big deal, the only issue with M240 colors, to me, is oversaturated reds that tend to clip but Photoshop can be your best friend as well if needed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansvons Posted March 8, 2023 Share #19 Posted March 8, 2023 29 minutes ago, Chris W said: Same shot using the RD1s profile. Looks much better as a starting point to me. Agreed. Do you know you can turn the RD1 profile into a Leica profile by renaming it appropriately? This link will lead you to a folder that contains the V2 M240 profile in case you don't have it (C1 seemingly revisited the M240 profile): https://nextcloud.jubelmeldung.de/index.php/s/LSpC6n74oM9nqo4 I also included the RD1 profile, renamed LeicaM240-RD1. It will appear in C1/Style/ Base Characteristics/ICC Profile as a Leica M240 profile. You only have to open the C1 application in the Applications folder by right-clicking the C1 icon and selecting Show Package Content. The correct path is also included in that folder too. Lastly, I included screenshots of the two individual profiles in cube view. As you can see, the RD1 profile favours blue much more and magenta lesser (as expected). The contrast, BTW, is roughly the same. Hope that helps. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share #20 Posted March 8, 2023 Thanks. Yes, I have renamed a few M240 profiles. I'd definitely like to try your one, thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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