Do Zeiss M lenses still suffer from 'wobble'?

[logan2z]

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I currently have a Summarit 35/2.4 and enjoy the lens but I've been thinking about trying something different.  Call it GAS, curiosity, whatever    The Zeiss Biogon 35mm/2.8 has piqued my interest but the 'dreaded wobble' concerns me.  Has Zeiss ever addressed this issue, or is that still a problem with the latest production ZM lenses?

 

 

  

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[Huss]

Not addressed because they use teflon rollers in the helicoids which wear out over time.

[Dennis]

58 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I currently have a Summarit 35/2.4 and enjoy the lens but I've been thinking about trying something different.  Call it GAS, curiosity, whatever    The Zeiss Biogon 35mm/2.8 has piqued my interest but the 'dreaded wobble' concerns me.  Has Zeiss ever addressed this issue, or is that still a problem with the latest production ZM lenses?

 

 

  

The lens is a wonder, one of the best 35mm out there. But it rattles, mine does. No concerns at all, except surprise (almost shock) at the beginning. Never had a problem. Seriously, the lens IQ is stellar. Go for it!

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

Not addressed because they use teflon rollers in the helicoids which wear out over time.

That's too bad. 

[28framelines]

My understanding is you can get the lens repaired and the Teflon rollers can be replaced with something more durable

[logan2z]

10 minutes ago, 28framelines said:

My understanding is you can get the lens repaired and the Teflon rollers can be replaced with something more durable

Repaired by Zeiss or a third party?  If by Zeiss, I wonder why they wouldn't just use the more durable material in the first place.  

I may just suck it up and buy the 35mm Summicron - at a mere 4x the price 🙄  

[28framelines]

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31 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Repaired by Zeiss or a third party?  If by Zeiss, I wonder why they wouldn't just use the more durable material in the first place.  

I may just suck it up and buy the 35mm Summicron - at a mere 4x the price 🙄  

I don’t think the 35mm Summicron is worth it. It has a (very well documented) propensity to flare, and the 35 Ultron II apparently renders almost identically without the flare issue in a smaller package. And repaired by a third party in regards to your question.

[logan2z]

57 minutes ago, 28framelines said:

I don’t think the 35mm Summicron is worth it. It has a (very well documented) propensity to flare, and the 35 Ultron II apparently renders almost identically without the flare issue in a smaller package.And repaired by a third party in regards to your question.

Right, I've heard about the 35mm Summicron's flare issues.  The 50mm Summicron apparently suffers from the same problem, although I've only had it flare on me once in the few years I've owned it. 

Maybe it's time for me to investigate Voigtlander a bit more closely.  Or just stick with the Summarit and focus on photography instead of gear 😉

[earleygallery]

10 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Or just stick with the Summarit and focus on photography instead of gear 😉

The Summarit is a fine lens. What is it lacking in it that makes you feel the need to buy a different 35? What is it that the Summarit can't do for you that another lens will?

If you can't answer those questions then you are just suffering from GAS in which case just buy any other 35 becuase it doesn't matter. Buy it and sell whatever you don't like.

Edited February 20, 2023 by earleygallery

[logan2z]

20 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

What is it that the Summarit can't do for you that another lens will?

I'm happy with the IQ of the Summarit, I just don't love the relatively loose aperture ring - which seems to get knocked out of position too easily - and the loose/undamped feel of the focus ring.  So it's more about the lens's feel/operation than the quality of the images it produces.  I could probably have both of those things addressed by someone like DAG, but I thought I'd explore other possible options as well.    

[derleicaman]

You do realize that both the ZM and CV lenses are made in the same factory? I have a number of Zeiss ZM lenses and have never had the "wobble" issue with them. But then again, i don't abuse my lenses either. I also have several CV lenses. The only one with issues is the 75/2.5 with an aperture ring that is very lose and wobbly.

I own both the 35/2 v2 and the 35/2 v4 Summicrons and have never had a flare issue with either one.

[logan2z]

8 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

You do realize that both the ZM and CV lenses are made in the same factory?

Yes, I do.  Although I've never heard of the 'Voigtlander Wobble' so I have to assume they don't suffer from the same problem.

[madNbad]

I owned a 35 Biogon for a while and it's a fine lens, it did develop a bit of a wobble before I sold it. Even with the wobble, there was a lot to like about the lens. The little focusing nub was easy to use, one third stops and that great Zeiss rendering but it was the 43mm filter size that was my deciding factor to sell it. 

[Ouroboros]

39 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

....I own both the 35/2 v2 and the 35/2 v4 Summicrons and have never had a flare issue with either one.

Same for me with my v1 35mm summicron asph (and my 50mm summicron v5).  From my experience, the issue of 35mm asph and 50mm summicron's 'propensity to flare' is repetitively overstated.  

ETA:  To the OP, you already have 35mm summarit f2.4, which I understand is a good lens with a 'modern' rendering.   If you're intent on spending some money on another 35mm, why not keep the 35mm summarit and consider something to complement it with a wider max aperture lens, has more character and a completely different rendering, such  as the CV nokton classic 35mm f1.4 ii sc? 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Ouroboros

[lct]

1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

I have a number of Zeiss ZM lenses and have never had the "wobble" issue with them. But then again, i don't abuse my lenses either.

+1. If the OP likes contrasty lenses, the ZM 35/2.8 is to consider seriously. My favorite "slow" 35mm lens personally. Matches well my other ZM lenses (21/4.5, 50/1.5, 50/2, 85/4) but also modern Leica's and earlier ones like Elmar-M 50/2.8. Only con is vignetting but it is easy to adjust in PP.

Edited February 21, 2023 by lct

[Huss]

5 hours ago, logan2z said:

Yes, I do.  Although I've never heard of the 'Voigtlander Wobble' so I have to assume they don't suffer from the same problem.

They may both be made by Cosina, but the Zeiss lenses are to Zeiss design and specifications.  They are not the same lenses mechanically or optically.

[hmzimelka]

14 hours ago, Huss said:

Not addressed because they use teflon rollers in the helicoids which wear out over time.

The ZM lenses don't use teflon rollers. No ZM lens I've taken apart so far does. Can't speak for the ZM 35/1.4 though.

The ZF Distagon 35mm f/2 that I have does have teflon guides inside, but not sure they are rollers since I haven't dismantled the lens completely to investigate.

The ZM wobble most likely comes from the retaining ring that holds in the optical block, which can loosen slightly which results in the front portion of the lens to develop a bit of play. This is a 30 second fix with a lens spanner. Leica has this issue too with some lenses, like the Elmarit 28mm ASPH.
Zeiss have reduced the occurrence of this by using strong threadlock at one end of the threads and very tacky grease on the other. If the lens gets repaired and the threadlock is broken, the grease helps to provide a lot of resistance to rotation to prevent vibration to loosen the ring even more.

The second bit of build issue with ZM lenses that I have not seen with Voigtlander, is the brass guides that are in place to transmit rotation forces of the focus ring and also keep inner helicoids in their guides. Zeiss uses solid brass tabs while voigtlander uses brass tabs with a cut out in the middle (tuning fork) allowing the servicer later on to widen them again providing little to no backlash.

Then thirdly, depending on how well Cosina laps their helicoids, it can occur that some helicoids are a little too loose. This makes focusing very very smooth and low resistance, but it relies on more grease to keep the helicoid centred with even resistance. My Color-Skopar 21mm f/3.5 has this issue with its outer helicoid. The optical block wobbles when focusing with the camera is in a vertical orientation. It took me several attempts to figure out it was due to a lack of grease on the outer helicoid threads. Now that I've packed it with a little more grease, there is no wobble of focus backlash. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by hmzimelka

[Huss]

https://www.leicalensesfornormalpeople.com/2021/03/07/the-zeiss-wobble-on-zeiss-zm-lenses-explained/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hmzimelka]

5 hours ago, Huss said:

https://www.leicalensesfornormalpeople.com/2021/03/07/the-zeiss-wobble-on-zeiss-zm-lenses-explained/

I know he wrote this, but it's false. Next time I have my ZM Planar 50/2 apart I'll post pictures. No teflon in there, guaranteed!

Edited February 21, 2023 by hmzimelka

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Huss said:

https://www.leicalensesfornormalpeople.com/2021/03/07/the-zeiss-wobble-on-zeiss-zm-lenses-explained/

I must admit that his normal people do not appear quite normal to me - but it might be the other way round.🙄