Leica 35/2 and 50/2 SL ASPH lenses?

[Ivar B]

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The optical layout and the exterior of the Panasonic 1.8/50mm and the SL 2/50 look identical. Clearly, both lenses use the same optical formula. That being said, perhaps Leica uses upgraded lens elements or something that the layout does not show. Obviously, the Leica lenses will be more solid due to metal body etc. I look forward to testers comparing the 50mm and 35mm lenses. We are taught to believe every day that EXPENSIVE = GOOD and CHEAP = BAD. I have no doubt that Leica is well aware of this and I am in no doubt that many buy Leica due to this. I think this is a sensible offer, though. More people will buy into the L-system when lower priced Leica lenses are available. Perhaps also the M system should see this development. M lenses are hugely expensive. The Voigtlander APO 35 and 90 are probably 95 % Leica at 20 % of the cost (or less?), so something should be possible.  

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[LD_50]

1 hour ago, cj3209 said:

I don't understand the negativity on these two new Leica lenses:  they are more affordable versions of the APO lenses.  Not expecting similar image quality to the APO versions and yes, you can get Panny versions as well.  Choices are good.  Win-win for everyone.

 

The negativity comes from the lack of communication on Leica’s part regarding the similarities and differences that between these lenses and those from Panasonic. 

They could very easily explain those differences and let buyers decide if the value proposition is there. That they do not engenders a negative response and leads me to believe they see benefit in the ambiguity. 

I don’t see this the same as having another manufacturer build or even design the lenses. If they’re copies of other available lenses, they should communicate any differences. 

[huwm]

I think I'd likely go for the new Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art over the 50mm f2 ASPH

I've had and got rid of the Panasonic 50mm f1.8 in favour of the Sigma 65mm f2 which I was very happy with but really wanted a 50mm so I finally acquired my one and probably only APO, the 50mm

I'm also very happy with the Sigma 35mm f2 but it has become my webcam lens and been replaced by the 35mm f1.4 Art which although considerably cheaper than the 'new' Leica is unlikely to be in any way inferior other than bulk

Would I have succumbed to the 50mm APO if the Art had been available or this new Leica, tricky

Edited February 9, 2023 by huwm
auto correct

[Simone_DF]

I wonder how much - if any - these rehousing in a metal barrel of existing lenses from other brands will tarnish Leica's reputation as a optic leader.

It may be financially viable, and it probably is, but there's a price to pay in diminished reputation and branding too, and long term that may not be a good thing.

[Virob]

1 hour ago, cj3209 said:

I don't understand the negativity on these two new Leica lenses:  they are more affordable versions of the APO lenses.  Not expecting similar image quality to the APO versions and yes, you can get Panny versions as well.  Choices are good.  Win-win for everyone.

 

More like disappointment. Until we see some actual reviews/comparisons, these lenses appear to be optically very similar to the Panasonic lenses. Those already in the L system, which covers just about everyone on this forum, has either sprung for an APO, or the Panasonic or Sigma versions. If you already have one of these, there is little incentive to exchange it for one of the ASPH lenses if optically they aren't much different.

I think the frustration comes from the perceptions that Leica is focusing more on bringing new people into the system (which then need to do), at the expense of supporting those already invested, including the  long delays on lenses promised years ago. Given that most everyone here is in the latter group, the "negativity" expressed is understandable.

Hopefully we will also see some new Leica lens designs in 2023 and everyone will be happy. 

 

[BernardC]

23 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I wonder how much - if any - these rehousing in a metal barrel of existing lenses from other brands will tarnish Leica's reputation as a optic leader.

There's a historical precedent. Some of the R lenses were Minolta designs. We know that the Leica versions command a significant premium on the used market. I really doubt that it's a "collector's premium," because Leica collectors aren't interested in (most) SLR lenses. It's mostly cinematographers who want those lenses.

The R versions are mechanically stronger, and they generally perform better. There are stories about how Leica would reject a high percentage of the lenses that were received from Japan. That's just hearsay, of course, but it's not something that has tarnished Leica's reputation.

[gotium]

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Judging from how differently the M lenses perform on the Panasonic cameras vs the SL series, I wonder how well Panasonic lens designs will work on the Leica bodies. The mount may be the same, but will the optics render as well, mostly at the periphery?

[rtai]

5 minutes ago, gotium said:

Judging from how differently the M lenses perform on the Panasonic cameras vs the SL series, I wonder how well Panasonic lens designs will work on the Leica bodies. The mount may be the same, but will the optics render as well, mostly at the periphery?

I am sure Leica‘s “interpretation” of Panasonic lenses are designed to be better matched to SL bodies and algorithms are in place to tweak it to be more Leica. For that and the mythical higher QC standards I am willing to pay the premium.

[dem331]

2 hours ago, LD_50 said:

The negativity comes from the lack of communication on Leica’s part regarding the similarities and differences that between these lenses and those from Panasonic. 

They could very easily explain those differences and let buyers decide if the value proposition is there. That they do not engenders a negative response and leads me to believe they see benefit in the ambiguity. 

I don’t see this the same as having another manufacturer build or even design the lenses. If they’re copies of other available lenses, they should communicate any differences. 

I don’t think Leica can communicate the similarities and differences with Panasonic lenses directly. It would not be acceptable within the terms of the L alliance to mention Panasonic in their communications- certainly not ethically and probably not contractually. 
 

They can say how good their lenses are, and they have published the MTF charts, and said that they are made of metal parts, they probably have talked or will talk about the coatings and other things. But the real test will be in the images and the reviews they receive. 

 

 

[Malabito]

53 minutes ago, rtai said:

I am sure Leica‘s “interpretation” of Panasonic lenses are designed to be better matched to SL bodies and algorithms are in place to tweak it to be more Leica. For that and the mythical higher QC standards I am willing to pay the premium.

my Panasonic lens focuses way better than my 35mm sl apo on my sl2s, so not so sure about the algorithm part.

[Simone_DF]

56 minutes ago, BernardC said:

There's a historical precedent. Some of the R lenses were Minolta designs. We know that the Leica versions command a significant premium on the used market. I really doubt that it's a "collector's premium," because Leica collectors aren't interested in (most) SLR lenses. It's mostly cinematographers who want those lenses.

The R versions are mechanically stronger, and they generally perform better. There are stories about how Leica would reject a high percentage of the lenses that were received from Japan. That's just hearsay, of course, but it's not something that has tarnished Leica's reputation.

Yes and no. The R lenses were released at a time where information, reviews, analysis, dissection and comparisons about these lenses was not so instantly available. Yes, there was internet when the R mount was in its final moments in 2008/9, but it was not as ubiquitous as it is now, and smartphones were at a early stage. Times have changed, you cannot easily get away with these gimmicks nowadays, remember the Hasselblad Lunar?

Moreover, the R lenses can be adapted to any mirrorless, and that's another reason why they still command a higher prices on the used market. The same cannot be said of the new L mount lenses.

All people are saying on various forums is that Leica is just reselling Panasonic and Sigma gear at an inflated price, and after all who can blame them? Short term there may be a welcomed monetary boost for Leica, long term who knows? 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, gotium said:

Judging from how differently the M lenses perform on the Panasonic cameras vs the SL series, I wonder how well Panasonic lens designs will work on the Leica bodies. The mount may be the same, but will the optics render as well, mostly at the periphery?

They work so well that some of them come with a Leica badge of approval, like the 70-200 and the 50mm 1.4 and others.

The M lenses is a different story, the SL has offset microlenses to account for M lenses design, the Panasonics do not have it, because the M mount is of no interest to them. They don't make money selling M lenses. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Perhaps one thing people are losing sight of is that the group of users on this forum, by virtue of being on a camera forum at all, are more engaged in the technical side of photography than a number of other buyers. There is surely a fairly large group of buyers who are a bit wealthier than the typical camera buyer and are looking to get a Leica, but don't necessarily want to buy all the APO Summicrons, for example. My guess is that the Leica stores are going to recommend these lenses as kit lenses with the bodies as well-performing basic lenses, perhaps as a primary lens, perhaps not. But especially for the SL2S at 24mp, these lenses are still quite good. I imagine that many of the people who might buy these lenses are probably not overly concerned that a similar or the same optical formula is available in a less expensive Panasonic lens. I think this is not as egregious as something like the Hasselblad Lunar, which was frankly tasteless and ostentatiously disdainful towards its customers. I think this is a case where Leica is probably genuinely thinking, "a segment of potential customers say they wan't less expensive, smaller, lighter lenses for the SL series. How can we do that?" Their answer has been to incorporate Sigma and Panasonic designs into their lens portfolio. They have been pretty upfront about their collaborations with Panasonic, so even if I am not in the market for these lenses myself, I can see why they are here. I also suspect that if you asked Leica why they are so much more expensive, they will tell you that is the price they need to set in order to make it make economic sense for them. The lenses are produced in a place with higher labor costs, using metal, with Leica quality control (while not perfect, it is fairly extensive) and likely in smaller quantities and typically sold in stores with a lot higher overhead than the typical camera retailer. I also suspect that if you were not comfortable with the price, they would probably direct you to the Sigma and Panasonic lenses. I remember being at Paris Photo when the SL2 was launched and the Leica store there in Paris has the Panasonic L mount lenses there as well, right alongside the Leica lenses. I was a bit surprised, but it seems like Leica feels like they don't need to hide.

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, romaing said:

SL3 won't be on the market before 2024.
The boss of my Leica Store had a 3 days meeting with Leica HQ. SL3 won't be out before 2024, it's a fact.

I assume we'll see the Q3 before the SL3, the timeline of the past years has been like this, more or less. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Following on @Stuart Richardson's point (I haven't had time to read the whole six pages).  Part of the price craziness, at least for US customers, is that there remains a stiff import duty on German lenses that was first imposed several years ago.  It was about the time that the SL2s first shipped.  Leica figured out that a bundle of camera plus lens did not incur the tax, and that's why they can offer roughly $1000 discount on the bundles.  The tax is not applied to Japanese lenses, such as the Panasonic similars.

Lots of import duties have been rolled back, but not this one.  It seems like a "call your congressperson" issue, worth asking for help on.  The tax makes no sense, as there are no domestic lenses to protect.

[frame-it]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

I assume we'll see the Q3 before the SL3, the timeline of the past years has been like this, more or less. 

and prolly the M11M before or close to the Q3

[Succisa75]

I tried the lenses, I’ve tried Panasonic lenses and sigma and I can tell you these are good. Will the average person be able to tell APO vs these looking at a photo? Prob not. APO lenses are fantastic but that doesn’t mean they are the be all to end all.  Use the tool that helps you capture the moment.  

Reality is Leica isn’t selling a lot of SL bodies and this is their future. They need to build out a robust lens lineup that captures the professionals and hobbies to alike. 

These lenses are the start of that. It doesn’t matter if the optical formula is similar to Panasonic. If you look back in time, many lenses were similar to Zeiss Planar and Sonnar designs, but it was the type of glass, the way they were cut etc that differentiated the lenses performance. 
 

 

[Jk1002]

Why did they launch these without some sort of reviews I am wondering.

Also, is there a firmware update needed? I am still running the Sl Typ 601 and wanted to keep that a while longer

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[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I remember being at Paris Photo when the SL2 was launched and the Leica store there in Paris has the Panasonic L mount lenses there as well, right alongside the Leica lenses. I was a bit surprised, but it seems like Leica feels like they don't need to hide.

I was there too! how didn't we meet?

Sigma has some stuff too. some lenses and the little camera.I was talking to Piacella, he was playing with the sigma, but I don't think he was very impressed.
I went back the next day, and all the other brands where gone!

 

[Photoworks]

I don't know why everyone is loosing over this two lenses. Panasonic or not, this are Leica branded!

why should Leica tell if they are PANA? they just need to say that they are selling a Leica lens. It is then up to you to make a wallet decision.

In any case many Leica lenses are optimized for video, and this are no different. Focus breading is minimized, and they don't make any noise.

If you are worried about the performance on the SL2 bodies, don't be! . In my experience all adapted lenses perform better on SL bodies. I use many EF canon lenses and they are much better on SL2 than any Sony Panasonic body. That is the little benefit to have the M lenses compatibility.