SL3 Rumors

[eab]

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12 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Here goes. Hope it helps.

1. The SL3 won't focus as well in AFC as the current Sony's, if the S5II and Q3 are anything to go by. But they'll be much improved. I see few places where they won't be good enough for me. It was already much better with the last firmware (many got out early and missed this) and AFS was basically the same speed. Also, the blackout time is not A1 speeds. The A1 is special because of it's sensor. I'll likely keep a small Sony kit based around the A1/200-600. I'm also keeping my A7CR and A7R5 but the SL3 will likely, mostly, replace the latter, I think. Time will tell.

2. I have ordered the 20 and 50 DGDN lenses and the new 500 f5.6. I have them in Sony mount already (plus the 85 but not the 500). They're as good as the SL Summicrons but not quite to the level of the APO Summicron SL's. They have aperture rings which is nice. They focus fast and are very sharp. I got these three because they're the closest to the FL's I like, except I might have got the 45 but it's not quite as sharp and it's a 2.8. It draws nicely though. I also ordered the Panasonic 100mm macro which I think should be versatile as a short tele. The Sigma 85 is very good but close to the 50. This spread is close to my X2D kit (28,55,90,135). I also have the 21, 28, 50 and 90 APO Summicron SL's. I know my likes for primes, mostly. In an ideal world it's a 20, 28, 45 and 100mm set so I go for as close to that as I can. I think this will be a great street set of lenses and travel as I'll save nearly a kilo. If I'm travelling without the zooms I'll take the APO Summicrons or a Hasselblad.

3.I have not tried either the 28-70 or the new 28-200. *For me*, I wanted a wide to standard zoom as a walkaround *city* zoom. I love the Sony 20-70 for this. The Panasonic isn't quite as good but it's decent. I'll add the 100mm Panasonic as an extra to get a bit more reach. I'll carry this in addition to my 24-90 not instead of. The 20-60 is purely for when I am not concentrating on photography in a new city but want a camera with me. Generally I expect my travel kit to be the 14-24, 24-90 and 100-400 plus a prime or two or an X2D. I'll swap out the 100-400 for the spectacular 90-280 and Sigma 500 for wildlife. 20-60 packed away for lazy days out city walking.

4. I have both the Sigma and Leica 100-400. Optically they are identical. I see it like this. The Leica is more like a *sport* version of the lens. Heavier but better build, sealing, etc. with the same optics. I'll likely carry the Leica because of the weather sealing and consistent filter size but the Sigma is the sensible choice. It's exactly the same performance (and colour) but noticeably lighter, for less money. Whatever you get check it because there's some sample variation.

Gordon

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. In regards to the Sony gear I am trying to accomplish the same goals.  I don't really enjoy using it and would like to transition as much to the SL3 as possible.  I am sure I will continue to use the Sony gear for BIF, and wildlife.  

I am encouraged to hear the Sigma lenses generally perform as well as the SL Summicrons.  I am going to order a couple of them and give them a try.  I will probably end up with a mix of the APO SLs and the Sigmas for my primes.  I wish I was as settled on my prime FL set as you but  I am not there yet.  

I  like the 20-70, and use it on my A7R5 and A7C, it definitely ticks off the walk around zoom.  The 20-60 seems comparable and I will give it a try, thanks for the recommendation, I may also give the Sigma 28-70 as it is small and light.

Sample variation on the 100-400 seems likely so I will definitely check them in either case.  

Thanks a lot and looking forward to seeing everyones take on the SL3....

Eric

 

 

[trickness]

37 minutes ago, padam said:

Apart from keeping the camera level and having more stability for video, there is no advantage to the weight. I don't even find the grip that great without a half case (still better than the original SL, that was bad). M lens designers go all the trouble to make them as small, light and compact as they can be. And then they are mounted on one of the biggest, heaviest mirrorless bodies out there. Great pairing. (Great IQ and EVF though)
I still wonder if the sensor in an SL3-S will be just phase-detect update, or something more serious (4k120p, etc.) for less, since that would already devaluate the older tech SL3.
I guess it will be another year to find out.

I find the people who complain the most about the SL2 weight are people who either are coming from the M and/or whom don’t seem to shoot that much.

I almost never hear complaints about the SL2 weight from anyone who shoots with it on a semi-professional level or above.

Half-cases are a fashion accessory 

Edited February 29, 2024 by trickness

[Pelu2010]

I was having trouble with the weight only if I was walking around and left the camera in the hand. 

But last week I went for a Panasonic 100 mm macro lens. 

This lens is light and fast. And speedlight too. 

It's excellent in rendering and performance. 

And for my walking - meditation - shooting the lens I was looking for. 

And the benefit is that while you do portraits you can go very near and have no issues with the 60 -70 cm

that usually the 85 0r 75 keeps you away from the portrait. 

If I need a sharper lens for a job I test it and rent it. 

I am happy with this set up. 

So if the SL3 should be have a little less weight, I am welcoming it. And I guess that it will be as good as the M11 > with IBIS. 

And to me this is very important. As I like to shoot without tripod. 

I mean I can operate a tripod but --- . 

cheers 

 

[Jon Warwick]

52 minutes ago, trickness said:

I find the people who complain the most about the SL2 weight are people who either are coming from the M and/or whom don’t seem to shoot that much.

I almost never hear complaints about the SL2 weight from anyone who shoots with it on a semi-professional level or above.

Half-cases are a fashion accessory 

I use an M, and that’s partly why the SL feels weighty, but I can also throw in that the SL can be heavy vs (say) the 100mp medium formats out there. Cleary depending on what lens choices one makes. I wonder if that’s a good catalyst to shrink the SL3 a bit, ie, assuming Leica is trying to work towards a mirrorless S camera that doesn’t end up a behemoth vs the Fuji or Hasselblad options.

[la1402]

People who look for a travel friendly allrounder or something to shoot their moving kids with obvioulsy have not been the target group of the SL2 designers. It still is fair to say that the SL2 proritizes design over function and ergonomics. If that changes a little bit with the SL3, its only a good thing.

[trickness]

40 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

I use an M, and that’s partly why the SL feels weighty, but I can also throw in that the SL can be heavy vs (say) the 100mp medium formats out there. Cleary depending on what lens choices one makes. I wonder if that’s a good catalyst to shrink the SL3 a bit, ie, assuming Leica is trying to work towards a mirrorless S camera that doesn’t end up a behemoth vs the Fuji or Hasselblad options.

It happens so often that we think we want something to change and when we get that change, compromises come with it.

you read the threads on every single camera Leica has put out, and someone’s got some kind of an issue with something. And I’m sure that there are going to be some who will be unhappy with any weight and size reductions that may be part of the SL3. Possibly because it handles differently, possibly because it feels less substantial than the previous version, blah blah blah. 

I don’t know why anybody who buys $7000 camera and puts a $5000 lens on it and then takes wide-open shots of their dog on the couch, or goes for a walk every few weeks and takes some pictures of their local pub should really be complaining about the weight of a camera. 100 g of weight has never stopped anybody from taking a good picture. 

As an aside: I used to be really obsessed with Ducati motorcycles. one thing that is tremendously smart about that company is the amount of aftermarket parts that they sell for the bikes. Little bits of carbon fiber, titanium and magnesium to reduce weight, and increase the perceived performance of the motorcycle. Most could just be bolted on by the user. And the company also occasionally would put out super light versions of the motorcycle, with all these parts pre-fitted, limited edition, with an accordingly astronomical price point.

Perhaps Leica should be putting more thought into their limited editions. Offer versions of the cameras with exotic materials and significantly reduced weight for a higher price point - that will at least satisfy the people who buy these things to put on the shelf. All Leica ever really do (Titanium M aside) is give the modern cameras a different color and people still go crazy for these limited versions. 
 

And both the medium format brands you mention have their own issues & compromises. There is no panacea.

Edited February 29, 2024 by trickness

[northernlights]

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I have shot the Sony A7ii and moved to M240 and then the Leica SL601, M240 and back SL 601 and then the Panasonic S1 and now the SL2. I only own M lenses and have used and sold the 24-90 and sigma 45mm L mounts. 

i have decided being a once a weekly 1-2hr light shooter, i need only 1 camera body. I have decided the best compromise single body do-it-all because of my M lenses is the SL2 (IBIS, 1/40000s e shutter, EXIF) and below $4000. In deciding, I chose the SL2 over the Nikon zf

[Le Chef]

I have suggested this elsewhere that Leica could copy the model that Ferrari and Porsche use the charge more for lightness. Richard Mille also does it for watches.

I don’t imagine Leica ever fully extracted their investment in milling aluminum that they used for the T/TL/TL2. Why not explore that or titanium for current or maybe future model and charge a premium for it?

[eab]

I guess I am one of those guys that really pays attention to size and weight.   I walk and shoot almost everyday and always take a camera.  When we travel we are either roaming around a city usually clocking 5-8 miles per day seeing what there is to see or we are in the field hiking.  I also don’t have a specific genre which I really love, I love it all, street, environmental, landscape, wildlife, etc.

For me carrying the SL2 with the 24-90 was not comfortable and it is not exactly discrete. 

As mentioned I to have gravitated to the M for a number of reasons:

- Primarily I love the fact that I have a huge lens catalog to choose from which allows me to make images which are different from the ultra-sharp images produced by most modern cameras.  For sure a lot can be done in post but that is not my jam and I am not sure I could reproduce the look of a 50mm Summilux even if it was my jam. I am unable to do this with my Sony gear.  

- The M is small, light and discrete which I really appreciate.  I can carry it all day with a couple of lenses and never think twice about bringing it with me.

- The ergonomics and the shooting experience with the OVF and simplistic controls also appeal to me.  It’s  probably the same reason I prefer driving older cars.  It just makes me happy.

There are a lot of situations where the M is not ideal.  Mainly lower light, moving subjects where I would love to have autofocus at the lower aperatures.  Harsh environments ( lots of mud, sand, wind, etc ) where changing lens is less than ideal.  Or just not having the right focal length mounted.

For *me* a smaller, lighter SL3 with an appropriate selection of lenses is my goal.  The Sony gear checks all the boxes except, I don’t really enjoy using them and I am not crazy about the look of the images with a reasonable amount of processing.  Between the smaller body, improved autofocus and the ever expanding lens catalog available I am very optimistic I can put together a kit which has the advantages of modern systems but with the elegant controls and ergonomics as well as beautiful images.    A big plus for me is the ability to pack the SL and the M and share some of the M lenses when the mood strikes me.  

One last thing, I really appreciate the community here, to me that matters as well!

So lets see what the 7th brings and thanks again for all the advice and lovely images!

[eab]

Just now, Le Chef said:

I have suggested this elsewhere that Leica could copy the model that Ferrari and Porsche use the charge more for lightness. Richard Mille also does it for watches.

I don’t imagine Leica ever fully extracted their investment in milling aluminum that they used for the T/TL/TL2. Why not explore that or titanium for current or maybe future model and charge a premium for it?

I would be all for that, maybe even a few lenses which were optimized using lighter materials.  I know a lot of people like full metal lenses.  I think this makes sense for your typical M sized lens, but when it comes to high quality autofocus lenses like the SL APOs and Zooms, I would welcome the latest materials wrapped around those beautiful optics.  In many ways the newer composite materials are superior in impact resistance, heat transfer, thermo dynamics, etc. I have always wondered if Leica they could build a light weight more compact 24-90 with the same optical performance?  

[LocalHero1953]

 

3 hours ago, trickness said:

I find the people who complain the most about the SL2 weight are people who either are coming from the M and/or whom don’t seem to shoot that much.

I almost never hear complaints about the SL2 weight from anyone who shoots with it on a semi-professional level or above.

 

1 hour ago, trickness said:

I don’t know why anybody who buys $7000 camera and puts a $5000 lens on it and then takes wide-open shots of their dog on the couch, or goes for a walk every few weeks and takes some pictures of their local pub should really be complaining about the weight of a camera. 100 g of weight has never stopped anybody from taking a good picture. 

I'm inclined to respond with a similar caricature of a professional.........but I feel kind today, so I won't.

Most people using the SL as a professional are likely to be using it in sessions, not occasionally - weddings, portraits, fashion, events - one doesn't notice weight when one works that way. If you are an amateur travelling, or doing street, or out with your family, you certainly notice weight when then camera is just hanging from you, unused.

Leica knows that most of its customers are amateurs (as for all brands), so in the SL3 they have responded to what their customer base wants - less weight. 

[T25UFO]

18 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

I have suggested this elsewhere that Leica could copy the model that Ferrari and Porsche use the charge more for lightness. Richard Mille also does it for watches.

I don’t imagine Leica ever fully extracted their investment in milling aluminum that they used for the T/TL/TL2. Why not explore that or titanium for current or maybe future model and charge a premium for it?

I like the idea but it has been done before and the prices - M7 and MA Titan - were astronomic.  They are for the very wealthy collectors and I doubt these cameras ever get used

[Planetwide]

17 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

A friend got one. It looks spectacular. And again, to squeeze that last 2% it's a BIG lens. The 24-70's from Canon and Sony are engineering marvels and very very good. But size has it's advantages.

Gordon

It's big, longer than the Leica. The Leica is a 2015 lens that still is the top of the heap, so to speak, being only eclipsed by the Canon this year, which says a lot. For me, 24-70mm is a considerably shorter focal length, and much less flexible, but that is for my usage case...  Really, we are talking about some of the best lenses in the world at these focal lengths, and they are all more than good enough. 

One thing that I am hoping to see in the SL3, is better lens corrections for the existing stock. It would be nice to see a camera that has some AI analysis of lens issues such as CA.

[PeterBoyadjian]

I shoot events and weddings with my SL2S and APO lenses, Camera/Lens weight isn't an issue for me, then again I am a pretty big guy. 

BUT I hate the fact that we don't have a Profoto A10 for Leicas. I have to use the pro-connect and side mount the flash with a bracket, and the whole setup becomes bulky.  

 

[sebben]

All we want is an M sized full frame EVF camera. 

[trickness]

27 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

I'm inclined to respond with a similar caricature of a professional.........but I feel kind today, so I won't.

Most people using the SL as a professional are likely to be using it in sessions, not occasionally - weddings, portraits, fashion, events - one doesn't notice weight when one works that way. If you are an amateur travelling, or doing street, or out with your family, you certainly notice weight when then camera is just hanging from you, unused.

Leica knows that most of its customers are amateurs (as for all brands), so in the SL3 they have responded to what their customer base wants - less weight. 

I don’t think any camera brand sets out to make a product that is going way too much and be cumbersome. But I’ve been reading these criticisms on here about how heavy the SL2 is for the past several years and they’re just ridiculous. and I say this as somebody who has used this particular camera since the first month it came out and has probably shot about 50,000+ frames on it. One body, SL APO and M lenses. “Doing street” is 100% what I do with it. if I want a super light carry, I bring a Q2M. 

The camera is not an M body and is never going to be that. And thank the stars for that! I like my ibis, dual card slot weathersealing , etc etc that the SL2 has. A 100 gram weight loss and some slight reduction in size is not that substantial (if the leaked specs are correct). 
 

and I completely disagree that Leica “build cameras for an amateur base”. I think they design the best product they can & hope it can be used by both amateurs & pros. If their primary concern was designing a camera that people could go on a family walk and not feel the camera on their hip, they probably would’ve gone out of business years ago.

 

 

Edited February 29, 2024 by trickness

[trickness]

34 minutes ago, eab said:

I would be all for that, maybe even a few lenses which were optimized using lighter materials.  I know a lot of people like full metal lenses.  I think this makes sense for your typical M sized lens, but when it comes to high quality autofocus lenses like the SL APOs and Zooms, I would welcome the latest materials wrapped around those beautiful optics.  In many ways the newer composite materials are superior in impact resistance, heat transfer, thermo dynamics, etc. I have always wondered if Leica they could build a light weight more compact 24-90 with the same optical performance?  

Ralph Gibson said the most beautiful sound he ever heard was a zoom lens being thrown into a swimming pool.

The 24 to 90 is an incredible performer, but it’s a pig of a lens. Just put a 50 mm M lens on the SL and use your legs as the zoom. Your pictures will probably be better and the camera will only feel a little bit heavier than an M with the grip & EVF installed.

[Simone_DF]

26 minutes ago, trickness said:

if I want a super light carry, I bring a Q2M. 

I guess you never tried a Ricoh GRIII

[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, trickness said:

The 24 to 90 is an incredible performer, but it’s a pig of a lens. Just put a 50 mm M lens on the SL and use your legs as the zoom. Your pictures will probably be better and the camera will only feel a little bit heavier than an M with the grip & EVF installed.

If I want to shoot with a 50, I just put it on an M, and don’t need the grip or the EVF. The SL(2) serves different needs and circumstances for me, like accommodating more pig-ish lenses, or for lenses not well suited for RF viewing on an M. 
 

But that’s just me. A key benefit of the SL system is that it can serve as many approaches as there are users. Blanket statements, about any given approach, will not apply to many.

That said, I’d welcome a smaller, lighter EVF-based system.

Jeff

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[la1402]

1 hour ago, eab said:

I guess I am one of those guys that really pays attention to size and weight.   I walk and shoot almost everyday and always take a camera.  When we travel we are either roaming around a city usually clocking 5-8 miles per day seeing what there is to see or we are in the field hiking.  I also don’t have a specific genre which I really love, I love it all, street, environmental, landscape, wildlife, etc.

For me carrying the SL2 with the 24-90 was not comfortable and it is not exactly discrete. 

As mentioned I to have gravitated to the M for a number of reasons:

- Primarily I love the fact that I have a huge lens catalog to choose from which allows me to make images which are different from the ultra-sharp images produced by most modern cameras.  For sure a lot can be done in post but that is not my jam and I am not sure I could reproduce the look of a 50mm Summilux even if it was my jam. I am unable to do this with my Sony gear.  

- The M is small, light and discrete which I really appreciate.  I can carry it all day with a couple of lenses and never think twice about bringing it with me.

- The ergonomics and the shooting experience with the OVF and simplistic controls also appeal to me.  It’s  probably the same reason I prefer driving older cars.  It just makes me happy.

There are a lot of situations where the M is not ideal.  Mainly lower light, moving subjects where I would love to have autofocus at the lower aperatures.  Harsh environments ( lots of mud, sand, wind, etc ) where changing lens is less than ideal.  Or just not having the right focal length mounted.

For *me* a smaller, lighter SL3 with an appropriate selection of lenses is my goal.  The Sony gear checks all the boxes except, I don’t really enjoy using them and I am not crazy about the look of the images with a reasonable amount of processing.  Between the smaller body, improved autofocus and the ever expanding lens catalog available I am very optimistic I can put together a kit which has the advantages of modern systems but with the elegant controls and ergonomics as well as beautiful images.    A big plus for me is the ability to pack the SL and the M and share some of the M lenses when the mood strikes me.  

One last thing, I really appreciate the community here, to me that matters as well!

So lets see what the 7th brings and thanks again for all the advice and lovely images!

I am so much with you on your journey! And feel the same about Sony.....