SL3 Rumors

[LocalHero1953]

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13 hours ago, robb said:

Peter,

Here is my take on my leica’s vs hassy.

the resolution of 47 vs 100 or 61 vs 100 does not matter at all to me.   I see both current cameras as almost equals but with different uses and high points.

Leica does almost everything extremely well for me.  I’ll generally take two sl2 or sl2-s bodies with me for every assignment along with either a 21,35,75 or 28,50,90 combo.  I’ll add the 90-280 to one of those two sets if needed and primarily use that lens with E-shutter outside.  These will never let you down.  And I also use them on a tripod with multishot and sometimes multishot stitching.  They are fun and easy to use with strobe at 1/250th.  You can see very well with the viewfinder when set to PASM vs PAS mode when shooting flash in manual mode even in a darker room.  It’s not perfect in these situations 100% of the time but almost always good to go.  Extremely bright backlit scenes and dark foreground you wish to strobe in manual, like windows can mess up the viewfinder view of what you can clearly see.

I’ve now blown up photos from the SL2 in multishot mode to 15’ wide.  And in regular single shot mode to like 8’ or more.  You can really count eyelashes and see amazing details on huge blowups.  I’ll give all that credit to the apo primes with a tiny bit of credit to ibis.  The clients are extremely happy.  And I am quite impressed.  I’m a bit disappointed that there’s not a lot more to buy for the sl2 cameras.  I don’t want the wide zoom, or Panasonic rebrands (I’m not knocking them) but the apo’s are the most amazing lenses like… ever, so I really don’t want anything lower in the food chain.  I love the 35mm full frame ratio of 2x3.  I’d absolutely consider an sl3 if the continuous AF took a giant leap.  I’m here to tell you that 47 vs 61 mp I could really care less about.  Because I can do anything with 47mp and do almost everything with the 24mp with the sl2-s with those apo’s.

another exciting new thing for me is starting to use my sl2-s cameras for cine.  I did two documentary interviews today with two camera setups, audio, lighting.  The stuff was just wonderful and I wasn’t even shooting raw yet… So I see video as more of my work and another service to offer.  I really love movies and the added story telling capability.  I ordered a DJI ronin 4d with Leica L mount so all my apo’s will work on that moving cine camera as well.  A great combo using all these together for still and cine I think with the same apo’s.

I’ll just say, I love Everything I am doing with my Leica sl2 and sl2-s cameras.  So they are really hard to beat.
 

I will grab the hassy x2d with several of the 4 new v lenses when I want or need to travel lighter, lower profile, and if I want to shoot strobed environmental portraits outside.  It’s kind of like my slightly larger Leica Q.  Neither the x2d or my q-p get used close to the sl2 cameras, even though I like them all.  The x2d has great ergonomics.  Better than the sl2.  It has good UI but fewer items on the camera (fewer customization / features).  But the viewfinder and its pasm vs pas settings do not make it easy to see your subject when shooting strobe in manual mode with overpowering the sun.  You kind of have to trust it will focus correctly, and check the result after the fact to make sure.  Focusing is normally good. The aspect ratio is not ideal for all subjects.  If you cropped an x2d file to 2x3 I think it would equal…..a 60mp file…  but the Leica can’t really do what the hassy does with those great leaf shutters and strobe.  The x2d is also fairly quiet and a bit less noise than the sl2 in mech shutter mode.  The hassy 90 v lens is a bit louder that the 28,38,and 55.  The Leica sl2 in e-shutter is silent… 

the hassy colors are great with strobe.  The Leica colors are also great with only minor tweaks.  For some reason, I prefer the Leica colors for general outdoor shooting without strobes.  Not sure why but that’s my preference.  I wouldn’t pick one or the other just for the color.  People notice the x2d less.  So even though it is a similar dimension to the sl2, it’s just more of a stealth camera to me.  

I’ve shot indoor studio portraits with the x2d recently, and thought it focused single shot better than the Leica with a higher hit rate.  the face focus mode does not work on the hassy with the back button focus.  So you’ll have to go front shutter button focus to use that.  I don’t really shoot that way but believe the update is very good in that regard.  I like the masking for xpan crop factors.  Not sure I care that it can’t shoot video.  The x2d to me is an extra specialist camera for when you need certain features for that day or assignment.  Could you interchange the sl2 with the hassy in most situations?yes if you don’t need really long lenses.  I use adapted canon lenses on the sl2 up to 800 or longer, and yes they still autofocus and I can use e or mech shutters perfectly.  I would not really ever use the e-shutter on the hassy.  Are the hassy lenses great?  Yes.  Apo Leica great?  No.  Not wide open but sharp in the center and very good when stopped down slightly.  I’d use the hassy lenses regardless of this with wonderful results.  

the hassy also has a big edge to me with dynamic range.  And for landscape shooters would be a great add.

The only reason I would ever pick to own the hassy over the Leica SL cameras is if you loved the aspect ratio, the amazing dynamic range, and the strobe use.  
 

just like we always owned multiple systems back in the film days, 35, 6x7, 4x5, I still think we still need some of that today depending on your specialty or what you want to achieve.  As a commercial shooter, I still need different tools to grab for different assignments / clients.

I will always see the Leica and hassy as complimentary, and both needed.
I'm glad I don’t have to limit my tools…

 

Robb

 

 

I agree with you 100% regarding the SL2(-S in my case), and the APOs. I could wish for a Summilux-SL 75 instead of the 50 that I have, but that's a minor grumble. My own move into video started with the SL2-S but is now mainly with the Blackmagic 6k Cinema Camera, together with the SL lenses. Although the non-raw Leica output is (to my eyes) as good, I find the BM6KCC, a dedicated video camera, much easier to adjust while actually recording - and the large rear screen is a joy. The DJI came along afterwards, so I haven't tried to compare them.

[Simone_DF]

6 hours ago, BernardC said:

There's no point being a "cheaper SL3" if the market is willing to pay for an actual SL3.

Well, if the 8k price is true, perhaps many will prefer the cheaper Panasonic version this time. 
To me no camera is worth 8k, so I’ll just wait for a good S5II deal. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Well, if the 8k price is true, perhaps many will prefer the cheaper Panasonic version this time. 
To me no camera is worth 8k, so I’ll just wait for a good S5II deal. 

Maybe it will not be 8k but only $7999.99!

[Stuart Richardson]

A 75mm or 80mm Summilux SL with a price tag in the same range as the 50mm Summilux SL would be a lens I would be quite interested in. I do not have the 75mm APO yet, though I have considered it and know it to be fantastic. But I think 75mm is a great focal length for a summilux that is more of a portrait or smooth/dreamy bokeh lens. The advantage of the SL version versus something like the 75mm Nocti would be not only cost (at least one would hope), but quick and accurate focus. Trying to nail focus with a MF 75mm 1.4 is not the easiest task, particularly with moving subjects, and here AF would be very useful. It does not seem like Leica is all that keen on the summiluxes in SL mount though. We have only had one in the entire course of the system and it was one of the very first lenses released. While a lot of people love it, I think the size probably put most off. My guess is that given its popularity or lack thereof they probably are a bit cautious to release any more. That's a shame though...I think they would find a market for a 35mm and/or 75mm summilux, at least if they did not make them too hilariously huge and not 8000 dollars+.

Edited January 25, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[AZN]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

make them too hilariously huge and not 8000 dollars+.

In Australia, where I live, the 75mm SL-APO currently has a price of $AUD 8.49K

https://leica-store.com.au/products/11178

Imagine what a ‘lux equivalent would cost 😲

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think they would find a market for a 35mm and/or 75mm summilux, at least if they did not make them too hilariously huge and not 8000 dollars+.

The tech has been there for a few years now, it's up to Leica to use it. Sigma and Sony did a good job with their lenses. Note that the Sony is a f/1.2

 

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[tomasis7]

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50 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

The tech has been there for a few years now, it's up to Leica to use it. Sigma and Sony did a good job with their lenses. Note that the Sony is a f/1.2

 

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Af engine is problematic to get more compact size. Imagine add Leica M optics then AF engine but it would cost far more than M equivalent. I think Leica produced larger less exotic optics then add AF engine and such to keep the price "low". 

[Simone_DF]

42 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

Af engine is problematic to get more compact size. Imagine add Leica M optics then AF engine but it would cost far more than M equivalent. 

Sigma and Sony managed that just fine. The Sigma is about 800€, or 1/5th of the Summilux. The Sony is in the 2000€ ballpark, but it's also a faster lens.

 

46 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

I think Leica produced larger less exotic optics then add AF engine and such to keep the price "low". 

And yet it backfired, go have a look at how many used Summilux lenses are around on eBay, MBP etc. It can be cheaper, but if nobody buys it because of the bulk, it's not a sound business idea.

[tomasis7]

9 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Sigma and Sony managed that just fine. The Sigma is about 800€, or 1/5th of the Summilux. The Sony is in the 2000€ ballpark, but it's also a faster lens.

 

And yet it backfired, go have a look at how many used Summilux lenses are around on eBay, MBP etc. It can be cheaper, but if nobody buys it because of the bulk, it's not a sound business idea.

well for picture quality, it is impossible to achieve the same level of the APO for other. If you don't think, you're lucky

Same for M lenses vs other brands while ignoring size. 

Edited January 26, 2024 by tomasis7

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Sigma and Sony managed that just fine. The Sigma is about 800€, or 1/5th of the Summilux. The Sony is in the 2000€ ballpark, but it's also a faster lens.

I'm not sure what the point is. Nikon has a Noct 1.2 lens that is significantly bigger and more expensive than the Summilux-SL. Panasonic's 50/1.4 is slightly bigger than the Summilux. Clearly all of these fine optical manufacturers know how to make smaller/cheaper lenses. Optical design is a matter of compromise, each company makes their own choices. We are spoiled for choice with the L mount with three great 50/1.4 options, at three different price points.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, tomasis7 said:

well for picture quality, it is impossible to achieve the same level of the APO for other. If you don't think, you're lucky

Same for M lenses vs other brands while ignoring size. 

Well, unluckily for mew I do think. The SL Summilux is no APO, and doesn't have the same performance of the APO. 

I haven't tried the Sigma, but I have tried the Sony and I do have the APO 50 SL. Shot the Sony at F2 and you won't be able to figure out which lens shot which unless you zoom at 300% or print your photos at humongous sizes. This thing that only Leica can produce outstanding glass is a thing from the past. The rest of the brands have caught up years ago.

This is the same for M lenses, btw. In the last 3-4 years Voigtlander has been on a roll and producing arguably some of the finest glass for a M camera.

[Simone_DF]

6 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I'm not sure what the point is. Nikon has a Noct 1.2 lens that is significantly bigger and more expensive than the Summilux-SL. Panasonic's 50/1.4 is slightly bigger than the Summilux. Clearly all of these fine optical manufacturers know how to make smaller/cheaper lenses. 

The Nikon Noct was a halo product released at a time where Nikon was struggling with market share with their brand new Z mount vs Sony and Canon. Kind of "Hey, look at what we can do! Come to our side"

The Panasonic lens was developed together with Leica, so of course the imprint is the same. Or perhaps it's the other way around? Leica SL lenses were developed thanks to Panasonic tech?

8 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Optical design is a matter of compromise, each company makes their own choices. We are spoiled for choice with the L mount with three great 50/1.4 options, at three different price points.

Absolutely. I'm grateful we are so spoiled by choice in L mount. Canon and Nikon users are not so lucky. 

[tomasis7]

2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Well, unluckily for mew I do think. The SL Summilux is no APO, and doesn't have the same performance of the APO. 

I haven't tried the Sigma, but I have tried the Sony and I do have the APO 50 SL. Shot the Sony at F2 and you won't be able to figure out which lens shot which unless you zoom at 300% or print your photos at humongous sizes. This thing that only Leica can produce outstanding glass is a thing from the past. The rest of the brands have caught up years ago.

This is the same for M lenses, btw. In the last 3-4 years Voigtlander has been on a roll and producing arguably some of the finest glass for a M camera.

As always, it is a personal thing. For me, it is about overall look and feeling. Leica always has it, especially in the BW. 

F2.0 is plenty fine for me. I don't believe in short DOF photography anyway. 

 

But the point in the thread is that you cannot produce smaller, better, and cheaper. Pick two of three. Smaller, better, and more expensive OR bigger, better and cheaper, etc. 

[tom0511]

Am 25.1.2024 um 04:40 schrieb robb:

Peter,

Here is my take on my leica’s vs hassy.

the resolution of 47 vs 100 or 61 vs 100 does not matter at all to me.   I see both current cameras as almost equals but with different uses and high points.

Leica does almost everything extremely well for me.  I’ll generally take two sl2 or sl2-s bodies with me for every assignment along with either a 21,35,75 or 28,50,90 combo.  I’ll add the 90-280 to one of those two sets if needed and primarily use that lens with E-shutter outside.  These will never let you down.  And I also use them on a tripod with multishot and sometimes multishot stitching.  They are fun and easy to use with strobe at 1/250th.  You can see very well with the viewfinder when set to PASM vs PAS mode when shooting flash in manual mode even in a darker room.  It’s not perfect in these situations 100% of the time but almost always good to go.  Extremely bright backlit scenes and dark foreground you wish to strobe in manual, like windows can mess up the viewfinder view of what you can clearly see.

I’ve now blown up photos from the SL2 in multishot mode to 15’ wide.  And in regular single shot mode to like 8’ or more.  You can really count eyelashes and see amazing details on huge blowups.  I’ll give all that credit to the apo primes with a tiny bit of credit to ibis.  The clients are extremely happy.  And I am quite impressed.  I’m a bit disappointed that there’s not a lot more to buy for the sl2 cameras.  I don’t want the wide zoom, or Panasonic rebrands (I’m not knocking them) but the apo’s are the most amazing lenses like… ever, so I really don’t want anything lower in the food chain.  I love the 35mm full frame ratio of 2x3.  I’d absolutely consider an sl3 if the continuous AF took a giant leap.  I’m here to tell you that 47 vs 61 mp I could really care less about.  Because I can do anything with 47mp and do almost everything with the 24mp with the sl2-s with those apo’s.

another exciting new thing for me is starting to use my sl2-s cameras for cine.  I did two documentary interviews today with two camera setups, audio, lighting.  The stuff was just wonderful and I wasn’t even shooting raw yet… So I see video as more of my work and another service to offer.  I really love movies and the added story telling capability.  I ordered a DJI ronin 4d with Leica L mount so all my apo’s will work on that moving cine camera as well.  A great combo using all these together for still and cine I think with the same apo’s.

I’ll just say, I love Everything I am doing with my Leica sl2 and sl2-s cameras.  So they are really hard to beat.
 

I will grab the hassy x2d with several of the 4 new v lenses when I want or need to travel lighter, lower profile, and if I want to shoot strobed environmental portraits outside.  It’s kind of like my slightly larger Leica Q.  Neither the x2d or my q-p get used close to the sl2 cameras, even though I like them all.  The x2d has great ergonomics.  Better than the sl2.  It has good UI but fewer items on the camera (fewer customization / features).  But the viewfinder and its pasm vs pas settings do not make it easy to see your subject when shooting strobe in manual mode with overpowering the sun.  You kind of have to trust it will focus correctly, and check the result after the fact to make sure.  Focusing is normally good. The aspect ratio is not ideal for all subjects.  If you cropped an x2d file to 2x3 I think it would equal…..a 60mp file…  but the Leica can’t really do what the hassy does with those great leaf shutters and strobe.  The x2d is also fairly quiet and a bit less noise than the sl2 in mech shutter mode.  The hassy 90 v lens is a bit louder that the 28,38,and 55.  The Leica sl2 in e-shutter is silent… 

the hassy colors are great with strobe.  The Leica colors are also great with only minor tweaks.  For some reason, I prefer the Leica colors for general outdoor shooting without strobes.  Not sure why but that’s my preference.  I wouldn’t pick one or the other just for the color.  People notice the x2d less.  So even though it is a similar dimension to the sl2, it’s just more of a stealth camera to me.  

I’ve shot indoor studio portraits with the x2d recently, and thought it focused single shot better than the Leica with a higher hit rate.  the face focus mode does not work on the hassy with the back button focus.  So you’ll have to go front shutter button focus to use that.  I don’t really shoot that way but believe the update is very good in that regard.  I like the masking for xpan crop factors.  Not sure I care that it can’t shoot video.  The x2d to me is an extra specialist camera for when you need certain features for that day or assignment.  Could you interchange the sl2 with the hassy in most situations?yes if you don’t need really long lenses.  I use adapted canon lenses on the sl2 up to 800 or longer, and yes they still autofocus and I can use e or mech shutters perfectly.  I would not really ever use the e-shutter on the hassy.  Are the hassy lenses great?  Yes.  Apo Leica great?  No.  Not wide open but sharp in the center and very good when stopped down slightly.  I’d use the hassy lenses regardless of this with wonderful results.  

the hassy also has a big edge to me with dynamic range.  And for landscape shooters would be a great add.

The only reason I would ever pick to own the hassy over the Leica SL cameras is if you loved the aspect ratio, the amazing dynamic range, and the strobe use.  
 

just like we always owned multiple systems back in the film days, 35, 6x7, 4x5, I still think we still need some of that today depending on your specialty or what you want to achieve.  As a commercial shooter, I still need different tools to grab for different assignments / clients.

I will always see the Leica and hassy as complimentary, and both needed.
I'm glad I don’t have to limit my tools…

 

Robb

 

 

I agree with many things. 2 things where I prefer the SL2(s) is much shorter shutter black out, and it feels overall faster.

 

[Simone_DF]

51 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

As always, it is a personal thing. For me, it is about overall look and feeling. 

Ah yes, the fabled Leica Look that no one has ever been able to see, reproduce or even define. Yawn.

52 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

Leica always has it, especially in the BW. 

In good part that would be the camera, not the lens.

 

52 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

F2.0 is plenty fine for me. I don't believe in short DOF photography anyway.  

Same. But the original question is about why Leica has not produced more Summilux lenses for L mount, so your personal preferences about DOF are irrelevant.

 

54 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

But the point in the thread is that you cannot produce smaller, better, and cheaper. Pick two of three. Smaller, better, and more expensive OR bigger, better and cheaper, etc. 

Turns out Leica has picked only one, better, forgetting cheaper and smaller, since the Summilux is 5990€ brand new, so not sure what you're talking about.

[LocalHero1953]

Jeez, this thread has suddenly become a bit hostile. 

[tomasis7]

20 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Ah yes, the fabled Leica Look that no one has ever been able to see, reproduce or even define. Yawn.

In good part that would be the camera, not the lens.

 

Same. But the original question is about why Leica has not produced more Summilux lenses for L mount, so your personal preferences about DOF are irrelevant.

 

Turns out Leica has picked only one, better, forgetting cheaper and smaller, since the Summilux is 5990€ brand new, so not sure what you're talking about.

1. Speak for yourself. Many like the look. Though not the weight. 

2. Lol, the lens is the most important part of equipment. Every photographer knows it. 

3. L-system is fairly new. Very tough competition vs others. You can't please with both F3.5 and F1.0 crowd. The M is more complete. 

4. You haven't understood. Pick TWO of three. Not the one. Think of the M-lux vs SL-lux 

[cj3209]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Well, unluckily for mew I do think. The SL Summilux is no APO, and doesn't have the same performance of the APO.

I don't think the 50 SL lux was designed for 'performance.'  It was designed for a certain look.

[Simone_DF]

9 minutes ago, cj3209 said:

I don't think the 50 SL lux was designed for 'performance.'  It was designed for a certain look.

Agree. Tell that to the guy above though.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[BernardC]

46 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Ah yes, the fabled Leica Look that no one has ever been able to see, reproduce or even define. Yawn.

It's the opposite way. There are too many definitions, mainly based on which generation you and your lens come from: Berek, Mandler, Karbe? I'm skipping a few, there's a full century of designs to choose from.

I think a lot of old-timers think of the "Leica glow," which came from under-corrected spherical aberrations (or perhaps too much time spent in smoke-filled rooms!). That era ended in the 1980s, but some people are slow to accept change!

The current Leica look is very different, but it's just as distinctive. The S lenses were first, with outstanding corner-to-corner sharpness at all apertures, and great flare resistance. You can look at back-lit details, like fine hair against a bright sky, and still find perfect sharpness with no colour fringing. It really opens-up a whole range of images that were previously impossible to achieve. The APO SL lenses behave in a similar way, as do many recent M lenses (not the re-issues, obviously). One of the ironies of this version of the "Leica look" is that you often need to step back in order to fully appreciate it. Sure, it's there at 200% magnification on a screen, but it really comes alive when you look at a large print. It's completely different from the "turn the sharpness sliders all the way up" look that you come across all the time.