SL3 Rumors

[BernardC]

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15 hours ago, Dr. G said:

What I'm most curious is what kind of low light advantage the SL2-S will hold over the SL3 with the new sensor. 

Historically, we've seen about 1.5 f-stop of improvement between sensor generations, and about the same when doubling megapixels. In other words, the 47 MP SL2 has similar low-light performance as the original 24 MP SL, and the 24 MP SL2-S is around 1.5 stops better.

If the trend continues, the SL3 will be similar to the SL2-S in low light.

However, it's quite possible that we won't see any improvements. Panasonic's S5ii isn't noticeably better then the old S5 in low light. That's probably mostly due to on-sensor phase-detect AF (be careful what you wish for!), bit it's also indicative of a slowing pace of progress.

A lot of rumours suggest that the SL3 will use a version of Sony's 60MP PDAF sensor, which is almost as old as the current 47MP sensor. If that's the case, we won't see any improvement in low-light performance, and perhaps a slight degradation.

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[Stuart Richardson]

I am skeptical they will use the 60mp sensor. As you say, it is already several years old and Leica tends to intend their cameras to last 4 to 5 years. Additionally, we have not seen a replacement yet for either the Panasonic S1 or S1R (assuming there will be one). I have a feeling that we will see a new sensor. I have zero information, it is just a gut feeling. As you say, I don't think there is a huge difference in quality between that sensor and the one in the SL2 either. It has a bit more resolution, but really not a lot. And as you say, it is not really any better with ISO performance either.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[budjames]

I own the M11 and SL2. I grab my M11 most of the time because it is so much more compact and light, especially the lenses.

I'm lusting for a Hasselblad X2D 100C, so I hope that the SL3 arrives with at least an M11 sensor soon to keep me from doing something stupid and way too expensive (i.e. Hasselblad).

If it comes, I hope that the SL3 will do a better job than the SL2 with my Leica M 18mm and 21mm wide angle primes. 

Regards,
Bud James

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by budjames

[cj3209]

2 hours ago, budjames said:

...

If it comes, I hope that the SL3 will do a better job than the SL2 with my Leica M 18mm and 21mm wide angle primes. 

Regards,
Bud James

 

The  SL2 evf is great for the wide angle M lenses I can't use with an M camera such as my WATE.  Although I'm told some M lens aren't optimal with an SL body.

[goodbokeh]

6 hours ago, budjames said:

I own the M11 and SL2. I grab my M11 most of the time because it is so much more compact and light, especially the lenses.

I'm lusting for a Hasselblad X2D 100C, so I hope that the SL3 arrives with at least an M11 sensor soon to keep me from doing something stupid and way too expensive (i.e. Hasselblad).

If it comes, I hope that the SL3 will do a better job than the SL2 with my Leica M 18mm and 21mm wide angle primes. 

Regards,
Bud James

 

Bud, I also have the 18 Super Elmar-M and love it...on my Ms. Like you I don't use it on my SL2 because of the degraded perimeter rendering. I doubt the SL3 will do better for wide angle M lenses because that would likely entail a pixel lens design for M glass that would compromise performance for telecentric L mount glass. I'm keeping my power dry for a EVF M body, hopefully with other benefits like ibis.

[IkarusJohn]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:15 PM, cj3209 said:

Although I'm told some M lens aren't optimal with an SL body.

Depends on the lens.

Edited November 4, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[SrMi]

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On 11/2/2023 at 3:44 AM, BernardC said:

Historically, we've seen about 1.5 f-stop of improvement between sensor generations, and about the same when doubling megapixels. In other words, the 47 MP SL2 has similar low-light performance as the original 24 MP SL, and the 24 MP SL2-S is around 1.5 stops better.

If the trend continues, the SL3 will be similar to the SL2-S in low light.

However, it's quite possible that we won't see any improvements. Panasonic's S5ii isn't noticeably better then the old S5 in low light. That's probably mostly due to on-sensor phase-detect AF (be careful what you wish for!), bit it's also indicative of a slowing pace of progress.

A lot of rumours suggest that the SL3 will use a version of Sony's 60MP PDAF sensor, which is almost as old as the current 47MP sensor. If that's the case, we won't see any improvement in low-light performance, and perhaps a slight degradation.

On sensor PDAF has no effect on  dynamic range. SL and SL2 have sensor technology that did not perform that well in low light. The sensor technology used in S5, S5II, and SL2-S is different and performs better. There is not much IQ difference between today’s best performing sensors and the sensor used in  Nikon D800 (2012). Adding BSI also did not contribute much to IQ, but dual-conversion-gain did.

[BernardC]

29 minutes ago, SrMi said:

SL and SL2 have sensor technology that did not perform that well in low light. The sensor technology used in S5, S5II, and SL2-S is different and performs better.

You need to compare with what was available at the time. When the SL came out, it was significantly better than what Canon and Sony had to offer in the 20-24 MP range. I know because I was shooting weddings at the time. You could go a couple of stops deeper than anyone else. One of the people I worked for traded-in her 1Dx2 setup for SLs after seeing what it could do. To be fair, she was already using R lenses, so she had no prejudice against the brand. The SL2-S is even better, but that's a comparing to a later generation of sensors.

The SL2 still has one of the top-rated full-frame sensors to this day. Only the M11 sensor tops it, and it came out several years later.

I don't know if PDAF has a negative effect on DR, I only know that the S5ii isn't any better than the S5, according to serious tests (not influencers). It could be unrelated to PDAF, for all I know, but most other variables seem to be unchanged (same cooling, same resolution, etc.).

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, BernardC said:

You need to compare with what was available at the time. When the SL came out, it was significantly better than what Canon and Sony had to offer in the 20-24 MP range. I know because I was shooting weddings at the time. You could go a couple of stops deeper than anyone else. One of the people I worked for traded-in her 1Dx2 setup for SLs after seeing what it could do. To be fair, she was already using R lenses, so she had no prejudice against the brand. The SL2-S is even better, but that's a comparing to a later generation of sensors.

The SL2 still has one of the top-rated full-frame sensors to this day. Only the M11 sensor tops it, and it came out several years later.

I don't know if PDAF has a negative effect on DR, I only know that the S5ii isn't any better than the S5, according to serious tests (not influencers). It could be unrelated to PDAF, for all I know, but most other variables seem to be unchanged (same cooling, same resolution, etc.).

The sensor in S5 II is essentially the same as in S5. There are only a very few pixels that are used for OSPDAF, but the underlying silicon is the same.

Z7 has the same performance as Z7II. GFX100 has the same performance as GFX100II. Launching a model II does not mean that a better sensor has been added.

I do not believe that there are any FF cameras with better DR than S5, S5II, and SL2-S, though there are many that have similar performance. I expect the performance of SL3 to be similar and, therefore, better than SL2.

[algrove]

On 11/2/2023 at 6:50 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I am skeptical they will use the 60mp sensor. As you say, it is already several years old and Leica tends to intend their cameras to last 4 to 5 years. Additionally, we have not seen a replacement yet for either the Panasonic S1 or S1R (assuming there will be one). I have a feeling that we will see a new sensor. I have zero information, it is just a gut feeling. As you say, I don't think there is a huge difference in quality between that sensor and the one in the SL2 either. It has a bit more resolution, but really not a lot. And as you say, it is not really any better with ISO performance either.

It is possible if in 2024 and the 70 year anniversary of the M (even though we are talking the SL3) they might use the newish 70MP sensor mentioned in Leica Rumors some months ago. It is also available in Monochrom. Yeah!

[algrove]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:15 AM, cj3209 said:

The  SL2 evf is great for the wide angle M lenses I can't use with an M camera such as my WATE.  Although I'm told some M lens aren't optimal with an SL body.

M lanes you can't use with an M body. That sounds ominous.

After trying a few M lenses on my SL2S I find I mostly prefer AF L mount lenses. Some lenses such as the 50 0.95 Noctilux are special and thus are fun to use. Others say they like using the 75 lux for its character, but that is very personal and why I generally find L glass the preferred glass especially the SL APO primes.

[PeterBoyadjian]

Leica please just give us a SL3 with a S5II sensor, the SL2S is perfect other than not having phase detect for video. 

The new handheld multi shot mode is really awesome too, Panasonic is making incredible cameras but the menu system is ugh. 

 

 

[whowell]

Given today’s Global Shutter announcement of the A9iii, I’m hopeful that the SL3 will contain the same (or better sensor).  A few months ago, I posted my wishlist in this thread… and basically it boiled down to a SL3 with a global shutter (24+ mp) with a q3 like flip screen…

In my eyes, that would make the perfect camera for most professional situations.

[frankchn]

9 minutes ago, whowell said:

Given today’s Global Shutter announcement of the A9iii, I’m hopeful that the SL3 will contain the same (or better sensor).  A few months ago, I posted my wishlist in this thread… and basically it boiled down to a SL3 with a global shutter (24+ mp) with a q3 like flip screen…

In my eyes, that would make the perfect camera for most professional situations.

Maybe an SL3-S, but I don't think they will cut the pixel count in half with the SL3 vs the SL2.

Global shutters are also not useful the SL lineup -- the situations where it is most useful in (sports) is not something that Leica does well or is interested in. The only thing I can think that would be really useful for SL users with a global shutter would be the unlimited flash sync speeds.

[JohnathanLovm]

1 minute ago, whowell said:

Given today’s Global Shutter announcement of the A9iii, I’m hopeful that the SL3 will contain the same (or better sensor).  A few months ago, I posted my wishlist in this thread… and basically it boiled down to a SL3 with a global shutter (24+ mp) with a q3 like flip screen…

In my eyes, that would make the perfect camera for most professional situations.

Probably gonna wait for SL3S version for that. The ability to flash sync up to 1/80,000 and 120 fps is literally game changer (and overkill for my need). With the release of Phase One P5 also using global shutter (128 mp 46x33), I’m interested what S4 will bring.

[whowell]

1 minute ago, frankchn said:

Maybe an SL3-S, but I don't think they will cut the pixel count in half with the SL3 vs the SL2.

Global shutters are also not useful the SL lineup -- the situations where it is most useful in (sports) is not something that Leica does well or is interested in. The only thing I can think that would be really useful for SL users with a global shutter would be the unlimited flash sync speeds.

Given today’s reliance on led technology for lighting/urban environmental design, global shutters negate the propensity of odd light pulsing/color shifting effects… At least, it’s a seriously cool byproduct of having an instant sensor readout.

also… by negating the need for a shutter curtain, absolutely silent operation can be achieved in board rooms.. etc.

Am I wrong to think that the M line of cameras is leica’s traditional line and the SL line is the “modern bells and whistles” line?  If so.. a global shutter wouldn’t be out of the question for a SL3… would it?

[JohnathanLovm]

2 minutes ago, whowell said:

Given today’s reliance on led technology for lighting/urban environmental design, global shutters negate the propensity of odd light pulsing/color shifting effects… At least, it’s a seriously cool byproduct of having an instant sensor readout.

also… by negating the need for a shutter curtain, absolutely silent operation can be achieved in board rooms.. etc.

Am I wrong to think that the M line of cameras is leica’s traditional line and the SL line is the “modern bells and whistles” line?  If so.. a global shutter wouldn’t be out of the question for a SL3… would it?

It’s unlikely the SL3 will “downgrade” to 24MP in flavour of global shutter where the M11, Q3 is 60MP unless Leica somehow make a deal with Sony to have 60MP version of global shutter. Knowing Sony, SL3-S is the best bet for now.

[BernardC]

11 minutes ago, JohnathanLovm said:

Probably gonna wait for SL3S version for that. The ability to flash sync up to 1/80,000 and 120 fps is literally game changer (and overkill for my need). With the release of Phase One P5 also using global shutter (128 mp 46x33), I’m interested what S4 will bring.

Wait until we see some serious tests. Very few cinema cameras use a global shutter, because of limited dynamic range. Maybe this sensor has managed to crack that nut, but it's also possible that Sony chose to use the technology despite DR limitations.

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[whowell]

15 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Wait until we see some serious tests. Very few cinema cameras use a global shutter, because of limited dynamic range. Maybe this sensor has managed to crack that nut, but it's also possible that Sony chose to use the technology despite DR limitations.

That may be the case.  The A9iii is obviously geared towards the Olympics shooters right now, which would make sense if the dynamic range isn’t up to par.  I’ve shot the Red Komodo for a few years now, and the dynamic range is far better than one would assume at the 12.5-13 stops that online reviewers have claimed in their tests.

[SJH]

Firstly let me state that I love my SL2-S and I'm looking forward to the SL3 in early 2024 but I do think the A9III poses some serious issues for Leica. In other words the serious amateur market is rather like say Ferrari's in that people buy them for 350k but may never go on a track and just cruise around in them, the owner though likes the fact it can do 200mph on the autobahn or go round that race track if they so desired.

I suspect the pricing of the SL3 will be similar to the A9III at c6k so many amateurs will most likely buy on bragging rights but probably never really use 120fps or shoot serious action/sports just like the Ferrari owner never really pushes the car at all.

Edited November 8, 2023 by SJH