SL3 Rumors

[BernardC]

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15 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Did I miss the Leica 12-24mm, or 20-60mm? The best wide L zoom is the Sigma 14-24mm. Leica, especially given their price point, should be putting out topflight lenses - not rehashing average zooms/primes. The "other" brands are releasing and shipping innovative designs. For example, the Canon 28-70mm F2.0 is a very good lens. Canon just dropped a 100-300mm F2.8 that will match the 90-280mm. Sony's new lenses are also very good. Witness the the Nikon Noctilux in Z mount. Leica could have offered a stellar 100-400mm F4-5.6, but they didn't. I don't buy Leica bodies to use Sigma Lenses.

That's the beauty of the L Mount. You can pick and choose from three different top-flight manufacturers. I understand that you don't want to do that, it's your personal choice. Sigma and Panasonic both makes lenses that are as-good-as, and often better-than, Sony.

As I mentioned, we could spend all day arguing that any given system offers one marquee lens that could sway your choice. Nikon and Canon make a few lenses that are as good as Leica, but they charge Leica prices for those! If you absolutely need a 100-300/2.8 for your photography, your choices are Canon and Nikon. You'll pay over $10,000 (more than twice that to get a whole system), but that's the reality of buying marquee glass. The same argument can be made for Leica: no other brand offers a 24-90 that is as good as any competitor's primes at every focal length. If that's what you need, your choice is obvious.

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[Planetwide]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

They use the same basic 47MP sensor, as does the Q2, but the SL2 has thinner sensor cover glass, a lens array to make it compatible with M lenses, probably different colour filters. The electronics differ between the two cameras. Panasonic uses their Lumix components, while Leica uses components descended from the S camera. That's the whole point of the "L2" collaboration between Leica and Panasonic: they will start using the same family of components going forward. This should avoid some needless duplication of effort in the future.

As far as "sharpness" is concerned, some reviews found the SL2 to have a slight edge. That could be caused by software, or it could be the thinner cover glass. Or it could be imaginary, of course! Frankly, any minuscule difference in acutance at 47MP is probably immaterial. If you need that extra boost of sharpness you should probably invest in a larger format of camera.

While I agree that both are close, there is a difference. Having owned 3 S1r's and 2 SL2's, the last of which was just serviced and benchmarked by Leica Germany. The S1R does show better detail than the SL2, albeit by a small margin, and predominantly at the edges. It is noticeable with the 35 APO Summcron SL. As I said, this is to be expected, as it is a compromise required to accommodate M lens compatibility. This compatibility is also a desirable aspect of the camera. 

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Leica-SL2-S-versus-Panasonic-Lumix-DC-S1R___1360_1294

Edited May 18, 2023 by Planetwide

[Planetwide]

53 minutes ago, BernardC said:

That's the beauty of the L Mount. You can pick and choose from three different top-flight manufacturers. I understand that you don't want to do that, it's your personal choice. Sigma and Panasonic both makes lenses that are as-good-as, and often better-than, Sony.

As I mentioned, we could spend all day arguing that any given system offers one marquee lens that could sway your choice. Nikon and Canon make a few lenses that are as good as Leica, but they charge Leica prices for those! If you absolutely need a 100-300/2.8 for your photography, your choices are Canon and Nikon. You'll pay over $10,000 (more than twice that to get a whole system), but that's the reality of buying marquee glass. The same argument can be made for Leica: no other brand offers a 24-90 that is as good as any competitor's primes at every focal length. If that's what you need, your choice is obvious.

I was very hopeful for he SL system, as I wanted Leica lenses in a professional body. I remain optimistic that they will improve the SL3 enough that it catches up with the competitions current offerings vis a vis AF. But they need to realize that the only purpose to buy a SL body is to use Leica designed/quality lenses. Lenses such as the 35mm APO, 50mm Summilux, 75mm APO, 21MM APO.

I already own the R5, and a substantial number of lenses. I would argue that the 28-70mm is every bit as good as the Leica 24-90mm. Yes, it's a smaller range, but it's also F2.0 which the Leica is not. The 100-300mm F2.8 will more than likely match the 90-280mm. 

And as I said, I don't buy Leica bodies to use Sigma Lenses. The Panasonic S1r's will do that just fine. And if Leica doesn't want my money, I am sure that Canon will take it...

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

they need to realize that the only purpose to buy a SL body is to use Leica designed/quality lenses.

I originally bought the SL because it had the most advanced video, the best interface, great colour with almost no tweaking, great lens compatibility, and a solid body. At the time Sony only had 8-bit video, tiny batteries, unfortunate colour science, impenetrable menus, and a plastic body that was prone to water intrusion. Still, I can see your point, but I don't agree, because SL bodies are priced competitively with other high-end mirrorless. A Sony a1 costs $6500. I have no problem using a Panasonic or Sigma lens on a Leica body, knowing full well that it's every bit as good as a Canon/Nikon/Sony lens. You feel different about this, and I respect your opinion even if I don't agree.

That being said, as I've stated already, if your body of work requires a specific lens, then buy that lens and a matching body. Every brand has marquee lenses. No one will think less of you, here or anywhere (fanboy forums excluded, of course).

[beewee]

23 hours ago, Planetwide said:

I don't buy Leica bodies to use Sigma Lenses.

You might want to reconsider.

 

[Planetwide]

I own a bunch of the same lenses, including the Leica 16-35mm, Panasonic 16-35mm, Sigma 24mm F2.0, 35mm F1.4 & 1.2, 65mm F2.0 plus all of the Leica SL APO's and Summilux 50mm, and the Pana 50mm etc... As far as the 14-24mm goes, I will test the Pana version against the Sigma.

I prefer to shoot the same brand of lenses as a set. I find colour matching a pain, and they are different. Lastly, I love the Leica look, its why I want more.

I shoot the Sigmas on the S1r because I get better results. I also own most of the Panasonic S series zooms.

I am well invested in the SL mount. all I want is the 21mm SL APO & the 24mm SL APO - not a fan of the 28mm focal length. I want a 14-24mm F2.8, 24-75mm F2.0, and a 200-500mm F4. Why you ask, because I want to standardize on one mount and reduce the number of lenses that I own. I'd rather have fewer top quality lenses. I'm sure that you understand this.

[beewee]

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If the Q3 specs gives a hint of what to expect from the SL3, then I’d expect:

• Phase detect hybrid AF
• Maestro IV (collaboration with Panasonic?)
• Probably same Sony IMX455ALK variant sensor as Q3
  • 60 MP, 7 fps @ 14 bit, 15 fps @ 12bit. I’m really hoping Leica would offer a 3-3.5 fps mode with 16 bit output but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one
  • 8K video, ProRes, up to 30 fps @ 8K, 60 FPS @ 4K
• New higher capacity 2200 mAh battery with 18% higher capacity than current BP-SCL4 but will be backwards compatible with BP-SCL4
• Similar or slightly lower battery life than current SL2

[Olaf_ZG]

Hopefully LENR can be turned off and a tilt/flip screen would be nice. 
That said, let’s first see how the new Q performs…

[LEGEND]

5 hours ago, beewee said:

60 MP, 7 fps @ 14 bit, 15 fps @ 12bit. I’m really hoping Leica would offer a 3-3.5 fps mode with 16 bit output but I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one

I would be happy even with 1 fps for the 16 bit output...  That would be cool...

I seldom shoot in continues mode... The Leica SL2-S is very fast und responsive
, most of the time I menage to catch a moment...
Even if I make few photos in series I want to keep the control of making a photo...
Espouser is also set manually just like the focusing... I prefer using M lenses but also 
have Leica  VE SL 24-90 Asph. lens if I need AF and OIS to work faster...

That is my workflow with Leica SL2-S...   Old school I guess...   

Nikola

[frame-it]

34 minutes ago, LEGEND said:

I would be happy even with 1 fps for the 16 bit output...  That would be cool...

almost like the 1st gen hasselblad X1D??

[LEGEND]

19 minutes ago, frame-it said:

almost like the 1st gen hasselblad X1D??

I know... but still...   
I would not say no if that could become reality... 

Nikola

[JohnathanLovm]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:35 PM, Planetwide said:

But they need to realize that the only purpose to buy a SL body is to use Leica designed/quality lenses.

Well, that’s defeat the purpose of L-mount Alliance. 
 

Also the one and only reason I brought SL because it’s the only mirrorless camera still designed for vintage lenses in both ergonomic and sensor. 

[SrMi]

19 hours ago, LEGEND said:

I would be happy even with 1 fps for the 16 bit output...  That would be cool...

I seldom shoot in continues mode... The Leica SL2-S is very fast und responsive
, most of the time I menage to catch a moment...
Even if I make few photos in series I want to keep the control of making a photo...
Espouser is also set manually just like the focusing... I prefer using M lenses but also 
have Leica  VE SL 24-90 Asph. lens if I need AF and OIS to work faster...

That is my workflow with Leica SL2-S...   Old school I guess...   

Nikola

It is unlikely that you would see any benefits of 16 bits on a FF sensor as the noise would overwhelm the two lowest bits. The measurements and test show no practical benefit of using 16 bits vs 14 bits on a cropMF sensor (GFX100). IIRC, 16 bit makes sense on the larger MF sensors (H6D100c, PhaseOne).

[LEGEND]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

It is unlikely that you would see any benefits of 16 bits on a FF sensor as the noise would overwhelm the two lowest bits. The measurements and test show no practical benefit of using 16 bits vs 14 bits on a cropMF sensor (GFX100). IIRC, 16 bit makes sense on the larger MF sensors (H6D100c, PhaseOne).

Yes, you are right...

I think that is one of the reason why Leica did't introduced this in their FF cameras...
To little benefits, more R&D costs and increased price... 

I always thought the bigger the better but it seams the quality is more important...
What should I know... To date I heard no complains about lack of quality...    

Nikola

[Planetwide]

On 5/19/2023 at 10:39 PM, JohnathanLovm said:

Well, that’s defeat the purpose of L-mount Alliance. 
 

Also the one and only reason I brought SL because it’s the only mirrorless camera still designed for vintage lenses in both ergonomic and sensor. 

Not sure I understand your comment. Are you referring to M mount vintage lenses? The SL was only designed to work with Leica SL & M mount lenses. If you are talking about off brand vintage lenses, well the SL has no real advantage over the Pana S series, Sigma 's FP, Sony's Alpha or Canon R camera's. 

If you are NOT shooting M mount lenses, then the Panasonic S1r is a significantly better sensor and value over the original SL. 

[JohnathanLovm]

3 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Not sure I understand your comment. Are you referring to M mount vintage lenses? The SL was only designed to work with Leica SL & M mount lenses. If you are talking about off brand vintage lenses, well the SL has no real advantage over the Pana S series, Sigma 's FP, Sony's Alpha or Canon R camera's. 

If you are NOT shooting M mount lenses, then the Panasonic S1r is a significantly better sensor and value over the original SL. 

No, Panasonic S1R is not ergonomic design for vintage lens no matter how good the sensor is. 

The so-called off brand vintage lenses I use are actually made by “pure blood” German from East/West era, which hold more historical values than today Leica SL lenses which some of them are designed by Panasonic/Sigma engineers. 

Unlike M and Q series, SL is facing the harsh competition from other brands (which forced Leica drop the aps-c line). The L-mount Alliance is allowing Leica and allies stay competitive, give photographers more reason to invest Leica SL.

[MrSMW]

7 minutes ago, JohnathanLovm said:

No, Panasonic S1R is not ergonomic design for vintage lens no matter how good the sensor is. 

 

Eh? It's a VERY ergonomic design/lens platform regardless of whether it's a smaller prime or larger zoom!

[BernardC]

8 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Not sure I understand your comment. Are you referring to M mount vintage lenses? The SL was only designed to work with Leica SL & M mount lenses. If you are talking about off brand vintage lenses, well the SL has no real advantage over the Pana S series, Sigma 's FP, Sony's Alpha or Canon R camera's. 

Many of the things that make the SL great with M lenses also make it great with any historical manual lens.

Specifically:

• The great viewfinder optics. Every brand has access to the same chips, but no other brand bothers to put such high-quality optics between the chip and your eye.
• Great ergonomics. The magnifier button sits conveniently next to your thumb, unlike the contortions required on other systems.
• The overall design that encourages the use of third-party lenses. There's a reason why many systems make you find a hidden menu item ("shoot without lens", or something similar) before you can even click the shutter with a non-OEM lens.

So, while you can use a Sony or Canon with (non-M) manual lenses, why would you? You won't save any money, and you'll fight the camera more.

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[Simone_DF]

28 minutes ago, BernardC said:

So, while you can use a Sony or Canon with (non-M) manual lenses, why would you? You won't save any money, and you'll fight the camera more.

Because on both Sony and Canon you can reassign the magnifier button to any button, so you can have it conveniently placed next to your thumb if you so wish, so your second point is moot, and because of the following:

- on Sony you can have any lens autofocus via the Techart adapter which works reasonably well. Eye-AF with a Noctilux or with a 135 f2? Easy peasy.

- on Canon R you have that beautiful focus assist with the 3 triangles, which I find way superior to the focus peaking, imho

So plenty of reasons to use a different brand for vintage glass. 

Also, regarding your third point, the "shoot without lens" is already set to on by default on Sony cameras (can't speak for Canon). And the function prevents shooting only when using a dumb adapter without contacts.

[frame-it]

2 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Because on both Sony and Canon you can reassign the magnifier button to any button, so you can have it conveniently placed next to your thumb if you so wish, so your second point is moot

>>>

Also, regarding your third point, the "shoot without lens" is already set to on by default on Sony cameras (can't speak for Canon). And the function prevents shooting only when using a dumb adapter without contacts.

love reading about the never ending "Sony menu excuses"

on ANY camera, once the menu functions are setup properly, one rarely needs to dive into the menus, the SL menus are equally deep like the Mariana Trench