SL3 Rumors

[trickness]

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10 minutes ago, la1402 said:

I think most people are very aware why a SL2 is bigger and heavier than an M. The typical comparison is not against M but against other, comparable mirrorless cameras. And apart from it's sexy, heavy duty appearance, there is no logical reason why the SL2 has to be much bigger and heavier than a Nikon Z7 or Sony A7R. It does not do anything that would justify it (quite the opposite). We may talk about how 120g matter or not. But all design choices together - the bigger size, higher weight and much more boxy design makes it a much less ergonomic experience. Some like it, some don't. No need to look down on those that don't or call it complaining. 

The tough (Democratic?) thing about the Internet is everybody gets to complain equally. So the complaint of someone who takes the camera out every couple of weeks for an afternoon and complains about its weight, has as much gravity as that of someone who shoots with the camera for 20 or 30 hours a week for three years. I wouldn’t go climbing mountains with the SL2 and the 24 to 90, but to suggest that it’s not a good camera for street use is totally ridiculous. And I know that because I have used it on the street since it was released, just like the SL 601 before it.

Not looking down on anybody who thinks the SL2 camera is too heavy. If I was, I would say something like they should try doing some push-ups, or eating muesli every morning.

I’m betting that even with a predicted 100 g weight loss, there will be complaints in the SL3 threads about how heavy it is, or how small it is, or how big it is, within a day of the camera hitting the marketplace. In fact, it’s already started if you look through this thread.

Now I’ll drop and give you twenty 😂

 

Edited February 29, 2024 by trickness

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Camera design is always a compromise. Size and weight vs performance, handling, ergonomics and balance. The last being the most underrated. Now that most cameras are hybrids we need to add heat dissipation and the ability to accept accessories like HDMI and cages.

Modern materials make it relatively easy to make a camera lighter, with the same strength. But that can affect the *perception* of build quality. Pick up a XPro3 and an M11. You definitely have a perception of build quality. But if you drop both the both break... perception affects sales. So a camera can be too light. No one wants a hollow feeling camera. It feels cheap. One of the things about the SL is they feel like you can hammer nails with them. People like that. And they are tough. Not many systems have IP ratings and proper sealing. Olympus and Leica. Does the R3 and Z9 have an IP rating? I'm not sure. Or do we just believe them when they say they're sealed? Would you pour water over your Sony to wash off sand, like I've done with an SL?

Heat management is vital. Canon screwed this up with the launch of the R5. Unless Leica start selling add on fans ala Fujifilm then they need the camera to be a heat sync and have some heat management systems. These are bulky. Physics and all that. 'Caus you know the YouTubers are going to complain endlessly if it overheats while being used in a Swedish sauna.

And then there's balance. This is Sony's main problem. All the great glass is front heavy. I didn't like carrying an SL2 and 24-90 but I preferred *using* it to a Sony A7R3 and 24-70GM because after a few hours with the Sony my wrist hurt. Hence, Sony is spending MUCH time and effort to make their lenses smaller and lighter to balance better. And they're doing an incredible job. The new glass is simply stellar. But they haven't made anything that quite matches the 24-90 in performance yet. Again, physics. You can't make lenses smaller with all the features without some compromises. And Leica have to make sure the SL3 balances with the 24-90.

So the SL3 could never be as small as an A7R5 or as light. By the look of the images available they've shaved the weight and size in the only place they could, to suit the system they have built. I put my 35-75 zoom on my X2D. That's about the same size and weight of the SL3 with 24-90. I wouldn't want the body smaller and lighter than that. But it all works well so I think those with the 24-90 will enjoy the savings.

Finally you can use non Leica lenses. The new Sigma 70-200 is absolutely fantastic. So is the 24-70's from Panny and Leica. I'll have a set of DGDN primes for travel. None of these are poor choices. They all match the competition. You can eek out a few percentage points with a 24-90 or 90-280, but the only zooms that match those seem to be from Canon (24-105 f2.8 and 100-300 2.8) and they aren't smaller or lighter. I'm still doing the maths but it looks like I can build a travel system similar to my tiny A7CR (even lighter than the A7R5) with the SL3 for about a 500gram weight penalty. I'll be happy with that.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

11 minutes ago, trickness said:

The tough (Democratic?) thing about the Internet is everybody gets to complain equally. So the complaint of someone who takes the camera out every couple of weeks for an afternoon and complains about its weight, has as much gravity as that of someone who shoots with the camera for 20 or 30 hours a week for three years. I wouldn’t go climbing mountains with the SL2 and the 24 to 90, but to suggest that it’s not a good camera for street use is totally ridiculous. And I know that because I have used it on the street since it was released, just like the SL 601 before it.

Not looking down on anybody who thinks the SL2 camera is too heavy. If I was, I would say something like they should try doing some push-ups, or eating muesli every morning.

I’m betting that even with a predicted 100 g weight loss, there will be complaints in the SL3 threads about how heavy it is, or how small it is, or how big it is, within a day of the camera hitting the marketplace. In fact, it’s already started if you look through this thread.

Now I’ll drop and give you twenty 😂

 

I have a bag weight. That's the camera bag as I pick it up. I know what's comfortable for an hour and a day and I pack to that. It's not about 100g. It's 100g x 15 or so. Currently I can build a GFX100II system that weighs about the same as a SL2 system with the same range. Why would I take the SL2? To choose the SL system it needs to offer something the GFX doesn't at the same bag weight, for me. That's the real issue.

Gordon

[scott kirkpatrick]

43 minutes ago, trickness said:

The tough (Democratic?) thing about the Internet is everybody gets to complain equally.

True more generally, but here we are small-d democratic.

[padam]

I really don't get this, when the SL601 came out, I guess everybody forgot to complain that it is not heavy enough for those zoom lenses.
Now this SL3 comes out almost exactly the same weight (852 vs 847g +/- a few grams with the old vs new battery) and people already think it is "not heavy" or "not quality" enough before anyone touched it. I really didn't find the SL2 heavier than the SL, 24-90 felt very similar on both, the SL grip made it worse, despite being a bit lighter.

If one wants to make it heavier, just add a battery grip (battery life isn't brilliant anyway). Doing the reverse is not possible.

[trickness]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I have a bag weight. That's the camera bag as I pick it up. I know what's comfortable for an hour and a day and I pack to that. It's not about 100g. It's 100g x 15 or so. Currently I can build a GFX100II system that weighs about the same as a SL2 system with the same range. Why would I take the SL2? To choose the SL system it needs to offer something the GFX doesn't at the same bag weight, for me. That's the real issue.

Gordon

Take 14 things

[bilbrown]

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Philosophical bit here...

 

Being like likely, quite a few of us – that have both and SL2 and SL2S – with trade-in of both cameras I might be able to pull the cost of the SL3, but then I lose a camera! When I upgraded to the M11-P a trade in still cost me quite a bit of green!

I waited a long time before getting rid of my original SL. I know the idea here is to pull the trigger early and trade or sell your bodies in anticipation of the new camera. I like the idea with the DR of the 60MP BSI/Tri-Resolution sensor of the SL3 it kind of replaces the need for the SL2-S and the high resolution also replaces the need for the SL2. It's kind of both cameras at once.

 

On the other hand, the depreciation of an SL of any sort is crazy in comparison to the M (although not as bad as the S was). Its becoming less and less possible for me to justify my two for one deal... I did it with the M11-P, got rid of my M10-R and Q2 Monochrom (I regret the Q2M most of all!)... And now we are seeing the used market prices of the M10 40MP variants staying high! as well as the Q2/Q2M. Will the SL2 stay in the same ballpark? Likely not, as it was not adopted and coveted as much as an M or a Q.

 

We used to keep cameras for years or decades, now we are chasing MP and features and change up every few years. I feel like I was just getting to know the SL2 well, and I often miss the M10-R. Plus the newer 60MP BSI sensor is a learning curve! On the M11 iterations with the hybrid shutter it's been a pain with FW updates to stop the so-called "freezes". I feel the Q3 was better suited with its leaf shutter and maybe the SL3 will be the best iteration of a body reliant on this sensor.

 

I don't know, folks. This just seems like chasing the unobtainable. I will likely shift gears and get the SL3, but this may be my last upgrade for a long time.

[huwm]

I’m wondering if a more reasonable priced Lumix version is in the pipeline?

[bilbrown]

2 hours ago, huwm said:

I’m wondering if a more reasonable priced Lumix version is in the pipeline?

The agreement is, yes but not until people buy a certain number of SL3s or a certain time period.

Plus it will not be exactly the same. Say, you will have a Lumix S2, S2R and a S2S maybe, as they are the next ones to be upgraded from the S1. It will have similar tech to the SL3 but the SL3 will be the premium brand. 

I have an S1, when the SL2 came out the S1R was already in production right. The differences between the S1R and SL2 were significant enough that I kept my S1 for its video functions with LUTS and whatever. When the SL2S came out it seemed as though I would be able to sell my S1, but no. There are still significant enough differences that I kept my S1. I also added a Sigma FP, because the SL2S doesn't do internal RAW. Same reason to get maybe the L Mount BMCC 6K over an SL3, or in addition to. 

See what I mean?

I think if you want the total package and the packaging of a premium camera the SL3 is the ONLY option. However, there are many L Mount options available, they just won't be completely compatible with the Leica lens line up unless its the Leica.

The main reason to get the SL3 is if you have already invested in or plan to invest in Leica glass, and want to take the full advantage of the in camera optimization for all of the functions of the SL3 with that glass.

Otherwise, yeah, a Lumix or Sigma or Blackmagic or even the DJI L mount variant might be better for you and not at a premium (luxury) price tag.

 

[Jeff S]

8 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Does the R3 and Z9 have an IP rating?

Canon and Nikon don’t provide IP ratings AFAIK. Nor Fuji and Sony. The only Hasselblad gear I’ve seen with an IP rating is the XCD 28-P lens (IP 52).

Pedant alert - it’s heat sink, not sync, as your flash experience would suggest.

Jeff

[frankchn]

Olympus and Leica are the only two camera manufacturers which provide IP ratings for cameras, afaik.

[frankchn]

10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Would you pour water over your Sony to wash off sand, like I've done with an SL?

I’ve poured water over a 1DX2 and a 400/2.8 supertele and it’s fine. Mud instead of sand in my case though.

Edited March 1, 2024 by frankchn

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The Z8, Z9, GFX100 and R3 would disagree with you. The S1R was not as successful because Panasonic should have released the S5 first and then the S1R/S1X/S1 and done some better marketing. Plus, it was behind some other flagships in features that the *Tube* deemed essential for photographing your cat. The S1R is fabulous. Panasonic just didn't get it into enough peoples hands to see that.

Gordon

The GFX100 is a medium format camera and plays in a different field.

The Z9 and R3 are ultra specialized tools. A good chunk of people into sport and wildlife were waiting for those two camera to make the jump from DSLR to mirrorless, that's why the success. 

The SL2 is not an ultra specialized tool and plays in the amateur / average consumer market (e.g. R5, Z6, A7RV), rather than the big boys. Not to mention the Z9 and R3 have cutting edge tech that, if we're lucky, we'll see on the SL4.

The S1R was a flop because it was 1.5kg of disappointments.

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Sony is spending MUCH time and effort to make their lenses smaller and lighter to balance better. And they're doing an incredible job. The new glass is simply stellar. But they haven't made anything that quite matches the 24-90 in performance yet. Again, physics. You can't make lenses smaller with all the features without some compromises. And Leica have to make sure the SL3 balances with the 24-90.

Who knows, perhaps this is the next step for Leica. Redesign some of their L lenses to make them smaller - looking at the 50mm Summilux here but the 24-90 could be another one.

[LocalHero1953]

There are people who just prefer smaller and lighter cameras, full stop, and many chose a M for that reason anyway. You don't have to object to the weight of a SL because you are coming from a M.

I have always preferred smaller and lighter. My first SLR was a Pentax MX, chosen for its size - no massive Nikon or Canon for me. Olympus and Pentax made a fortune from the SLR market because of their size (and quality). Fuji cameras sell well now for the same reason.

I can live with the SL and its size, and the size of its lenses, because I don't try to travel with them, or carry them around all day. I would much prefer them all to be smaller, but not if it sacrificed IQ, or led to heat dissipation problems, or cramped, compromised internal components. 

[Jon Warwick]

As a minor aside, i did think to myself once that the apparent bulk of the SL2 (and other mirrorless cameras) isn't helped by the large neoprene neck straps that often come as standard..... the moment i handled an SL2 with the Leica Cooph rope strap attached, it suddenly all looked rather more compact IMHO.  

[trickness]

51 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

As a minor aside, i did think to myself once that the apparent bulk of the SL2 (and other mirrorless cameras) isn't helped by the large neoprene neck straps that often come as standard..... the moment i handled an SL2 with the Leica Cooph rope strap attached, it suddenly all looked rather more compact IMHO.  

I use Rock & Roll straps on mine (Hendrix) and they have a little bit of give which is almost like suspension. Way nicer than the stock strap.

[chris_tribble]

1 hour ago, Jon Warwick said:

As a minor aside, i did think to myself once that the apparent bulk of the SL2 (and other mirrorless cameras) isn't helped by the large neoprene neck straps that often come as standard..... the moment i handled an SL2 with the Leica Cooph rope strap attached, it suddenly all looked rather more compact IMHO.  

Agreed re neoprene straps.  But if you've got a sewing machine and a bit of skill you can make one of these for a £1! Light, waterproof, comfortable, converts to a wrist strap, and wraps out of the way when the camera's in a bag,

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Not that I'm planning to get an SL3 for now though - I'll let others go throue the beta+ testing after March 3 😉

[Photoworks]

40 minutes ago, chris_tribble said:

Agreed re neoprene straps.  But if you've got a sewing machine and a bit of skill you can make one of these for a £1! Light, waterproof, comfortable, converts to a wrist strap, and wraps out of the way when the camera's in a bag,

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Not that I'm planning to get an SL3 for now though - I'll let others go throue the beta+ testing after March 3 😉

The SL2 was a solid firmware from the beginning.

ok, there were some issues of power with adapted lenses...
Tethering took some time to get it in C1P
backlight flash carried over a bug from the M and the Q. It took over 1 year to be fixed.

But I didn't have freezing.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

And yet, big cameras don’t sell.

You've stated that a few times already, and I understand why, but there are so many counter-examples that the statement has no bite. What about the 5D and 7D series which where the top dogs of the DSLR era, with a decade at the top of sales charts? The D800-series that single-handedly saved Nikon? Every semi-pro Nikon of the 1970s, 80s, 90s, 00s, or even Spotmatics, are roughly the same size as the SL. I'm sure you'll point-out that one camera on this list is .5mm smaller in one dimension therefore my point is worthless, but really, they are very similar in size.

Sure, if you look at the top sellers today you'll find the sub-$1,000 kits sold at major electronics stores. Is that really Leica's market? Isn't that what the S5 is for (not to mention various Micro Four Thirds kits)?

I'm not claiming that all big cameras sell, of course. My point is that there's a wide range of mid-sized advanced amateur and semi-pro cameras that have been top-sellers for the past 60 years that are within millimeters of the SL2's dimensions.

Also, is there any data behind your claim that the SL2 didn't sell? It's widely available, well distributed, stores tell me that they re-stock often, and Leica is making record turnover/profits. I don't buy the notion that quarterly promotions are a sign of failure. Every time I replaced a 5D I'd got something huge thrown-in, including a large format (A2) printer once! Every brand has quarterly promotions, it's just a way to incentivize buyers.