SL3 Rumors

[ynp]

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On 1/23/2024 at 5:30 AM, jaapv said:

Very typical for Leica, these “ unintentional “ leaks…

They are getting us ready for the price hike..

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Paul2660]

What is sad to me is that as the S1R can do both internal focus stacking (output to jpg) and focus bracketing to beused later on with Helicon Focus or other similar software, there is no reason the SL2 could not do it with firmware. 
pretty much a standard feature all any mirrorless camera. 
 

Paul

[Stuart Richardson]

9 hours ago, Paul2660 said:

What is sad to me is that as the S1R can do both internal focus stacking (output to jpg) and focus bracketing to beused later on with Helicon Focus or other similar software, there is no reason the SL2 could not do it with firmware. 
pretty much a standard feature all any mirrorless camera. 
 

Paul

I agree. Would be nice to have. Even professional photographers sometimes don't want to mess with a bunch of post processing in every shot. If they could find to do it in RAW, as they do with multishot, then so much the better. I would rather have that than the perspective control, if I am honest. But it is nice that they included that for people who find it useful as well. I think there is something to be said for adding features without it being overloaded or overwhelming. Especially since nowadays features can be in a menu, as opposed to in a specific button or dial. I think the ability to customize a favorites/quick menu system is a great way for Leica to allow users to tailor their interface to their needs. Some people like a truly minimized interface, while others want all the options at their fingertips. Now that most of the interface is electronic and customizable, I think it is good for Leica to give people that option. 

Another idea that I think they could easily implement that might be helpful to people is to have preset interfaces available. You could basically do it two ways. One would be to change the actual menu system and interface of the camera: so for example a "minimalist" interface which would just have basic parameters like wb, iso etc, with a very light menu system and interface. Another could be maximalist, with everything etc. They already do this a bit by splitting video and photo modes, and by cycling through the degree of VF information, but I think they could take this idea further.

The other way to do it would be basically just user profiles, except done by Leica instead of the user. They could either be downloaded from Fotos or their site, or just included in the camera. It would also be super easy to ignore them completely if that was not your thing, but I can see it making sense especially for amateurs or newer users. Honestly, really just scene modes, except not on a dial like on the Japanese consumer models. Since Leica has the user profile system saveable and uploadable already, this would not even need any firmware changes. Examples could be "macro work", "tripod work" "animals and nature" "kids" "money leaving wallet at Leica store (S mode with AFc and high frame rate)". Might not be Das Wesentliche, but it also doesn't hurt because it would be fully optional and need not even be included on the camera for those who are not interested.

[Simone_DF]

17 hours ago, PeterGA said:

Perhaps you could have added the 90-280 zoom to your kit and complained even more about the weight of the SL2 "body". Everyone that pines for a smaller body and less weight might consider the fact that some people have larger hands and dont like holding cameras with finger tips as if they are drinking a cup of tea...😜

You can always add a grip, but you cannot shave weight and size.

Anyway, the Panasonics S1 series were duds and very few people bought them. Japanese sales stats always put them in the 2-3% of sales of all full frame market.

Panasonic started gaining momentum only when the S5 was released, a smaller and lighter body.

Guess what was the first second gen Panasonic body? Not the flagship S1, but the smaller S5II.

Big, bulky bodies are relegated to the niche of sport and wildlife, neither of which are the core of the Panasonic or Leica cameras.

[jaapv]

Not at the core, but by creating the L alliance Leica and Panasonic made a smart move in that direction. 

[PavelS]

On 1/23/2024 at 2:46 AM, trickness said:

I think this is B.S. - there is no reason a retailer would have it right now unless it was launching within the next week.

Actually it is a common practice that the local (national) dealership showcase pre-production samples to the key retailers and key journalists & influencers weeks ahead of the official product launch. Few weeks ahead of the sales start they will receive late pre-production sample with latest available firmware to have some hands-on time. This is common with all brands.

[trickness]

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49 minutes ago, PavelS said:

Actually it is a common practice that the local (national) dealership showcase pre-production samples to the key retailers and key journalists & influencers weeks ahead of the official product launch. Few weeks ahead of the sales start they will receive late pre-production sample with latest available firmware to have some hands-on time. This is common with all brands.

Much less so with Leica and certainly not to the degree where some random person will get to see preproduction items. Anybody who gets to see these either has a direct commercial relationship with them, or is under NDA

Edited January 24, 2024 by trickness

[PavelS]

18 minutes ago, trickness said:

Much less so with Leica and certainly not to the degree where some random person will get to see preproduction items. Anybody who gets to see these either has a direct commercial relationship with them, or is under NDA

In theory yes, but it could happen that someone from "closer circle" is allowed to have a peak on product. Such situation is non-standard, obviously.

[trickness]

Just now, PavelS said:

In theory yes, but it could happen that someone from "closer circle" is allowed to have a peak on product. Such situation is non-standard, obviously.

If the person who supposedly saw it had imparted even one specific fact other than what's been speculated on for months, then it would seem more credible. Anybody who has seen one in the flesh would likely know things that haven't been mentioned in all the rumors & speculation yet

[goodbokeh]

On 1/21/2024 at 12:18 PM, jaapv said:

The rumour shows  a silver one. 

A silver SL3 option would be a wise decision by Leica. I'll be in southern France for the latter part of March. My past experience has shown me that a silver camera elicits less concern and unpleasant expressions. For my walks and visits to the smaller towns once inhabited by many of the Impressionist masters, this will be my standard setup: Silver SL2 with the 35/1.4 FLE mark I, carried in my trusty black Billingham Alice bag:

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[Richardgb]

6 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

You can always add a grip, but you cannot shave weight and size.

Anyway, the Panasonics S1 series were duds and very few people bought them. Japanese sales stats always put them in the 2-3% of sales of all full frame market.

Panasonic started gaining momentum only when the S5 was released, a smaller and lighter body.

Guess what was the first second gen Panasonic body? Not the flagship S1, but the smaller S5II.

Big, bulky bodies are relegated to the niche of sport and wildlife, neither of which are the core of the Panasonic or Leica cameras.

Excuse me, the S1 is anything but a dud. Mine has been far more reliable, not to say versatile, than the preceding M9 and M240 I owned (yes, I do know they're rangefinder cameras, so am not comparing directly like-with-like, but only what suited my needs at the time and persuaded me to part with my cash). Unfortunately, the S1's focusing technology was not as advanced as that of certain well-known competitors and this gave the model line an unwarranted stigma, notwithstanding that in not-so-fast-moving types of photography it is perfectly fine. Don't forget, too, that the Leica models shared, to put it mildy, a lot of technical similarities, even if they wore different clothes, and I imagine 'very few people' bought those either (if you have reliable sales stats, please share).

Panasonic was late to the FF mirrorless game, having concentrated on its m4/3 line; being part of the L mount alliance gave them a leg up but there's no getting away from them rather starting on the back-foot. Only with the S5II have they arguably got a product competitive with the current generation of competitors. More importantly, a number of people (including me) are waiting to see if / how Panasonic develops the next generation of 'heavier' cameras to replace the S1, S1r, and S1H (not that anyone wants weight unless it's justifiable; the Z9 is no lightweight, either...).

[PeterGA]

23 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The SL is large and heavy and, with the Apo-Summicrons, Summilux, 16-35SL, 24-90SL or 90-280SL lenses, is very large and heavy.............if you use it as a carry-around camera just in case you see a shot to take, as a travel camera, as a street camera, a party camera. It's unthinkable.

The SL size and weight are irrelevant, including the Apo-Summicrons, Summilux, 24-90SL or 90-280SL lenses...............if you use it as an event or photoshoot camera when you have it in your hands near your eye most of the time. The weight helps with stability and you can use the lenses to push people out of the way and crack nuts. It's perfect.

So well said that it made me smile- in the early morning even!

[PeterGA]

7 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

You can always add a grip, but you cannot shave weight and size.

Anyway, the Panasonics S1 series were duds and very few people bought them. Japanese sales stats always put them in the 2-3% of sales of all full frame market.

Panasonic started gaining momentum only when the S5 was released, a smaller and lighter body.

Guess what was the first second gen Panasonic body? Not the flagship S1, but the smaller S5II.

Big, bulky bodies are relegated to the niche of sport and wildlife, neither of which are the core of the Panasonic or Leica cameras.

For me - I don't see a smaller SL as being a draw card - I like the current ergonomics - but these things are idiosyncratic preferences. It will be interesting to see what the whole package looks like and how it compares to alternatives, but a marginal change in size alone is irrelevant to me - if it gets too small in hand (again) for me it becomes a negative for use with the zooms especially.

[robb]

Current sl2 size is perfect for me.  Losing weight without losing quality materials is always good in my book.  
I'm looking forward to the new release.

Robb

[PeterBoyadjian]

20 minutes ago, robb said:

Current sl2 size is perfect for me.  Losing weight without losing quality materials is always good in my book.  
I'm looking forward to the new release.

Robb

Youtube hype on the X2D is crazy (DJI has deep pockets), since you own one and a couple Leicas SL APO lenses. 

How do you think the IQ will hold up compared to the X2D if Leica uses a 61MP sensor?

 

[Jptsr1]

I just got into Leica with the SL2. Before that I had run through full size DSLRs then "large'ish" mirrorless and finally landed at Fuji. I generally carry an Xpro2 in my bag as my "small" camera along with my SL2 and two lenses. Even in the short time I've had it the SL2 reminded me how much more I like a substantial body. If the SL3 is too small I'm probably going to replace my Xpro2 with a Q2 and call it a day. Unless the SL3 is just amazing!!!

[robb]

43 minutes ago, PeterBoyadjian said:

Youtube hype on the X2D is crazy (DJI has deep pockets), since you own one and a couple Leicas SL APO lenses. 

How do you think the IQ will hold up compared to the X2D if Leica uses a 61MP sensor?

 

Peter,

Here is my take on my leica’s vs hassy.

the resolution of 47 vs 100 or 61 vs 100 does not matter at all to me.   I see both current cameras as almost equals but with different uses and high points.

Leica does almost everything extremely well for me.  I’ll generally take two sl2 or sl2-s bodies with me for every assignment along with either a 21,35,75 or 28,50,90 combo.  I’ll add the 90-280 to one of those two sets if needed and primarily use that lens with E-shutter outside.  These will never let you down.  And I also use them on a tripod with multishot and sometimes multishot stitching.  They are fun and easy to use with strobe at 1/250th.  You can see very well with the viewfinder when set to PASM vs PAS mode when shooting flash in manual mode even in a darker room.  It’s not perfect in these situations 100% of the time but almost always good to go.  Extremely bright backlit scenes and dark foreground you wish to strobe in manual, like windows can mess up the viewfinder view of what you can clearly see.

I’ve now blown up photos from the SL2 in multishot mode to 15’ wide.  And in regular single shot mode to like 8’ or more.  You can really count eyelashes and see amazing details on huge blowups.  I’ll give all that credit to the apo primes with a tiny bit of credit to ibis.  The clients are extremely happy.  And I am quite impressed.  I’m a bit disappointed that there’s not a lot more to buy for the sl2 cameras.  I don’t want the wide zoom, or Panasonic rebrands (I’m not knocking them) but the apo’s are the most amazing lenses like… ever, so I really don’t want anything lower in the food chain.  I love the 35mm full frame ratio of 2x3.  I’d absolutely consider an sl3 if the continuous AF took a giant leap.  I’m here to tell you that 47 vs 61 mp I could really care less about.  Because I can do anything with 47mp and do almost everything with the 24mp with the sl2-s with those apo’s.

another exciting new thing for me is starting to use my sl2-s cameras for cine.  I did two documentary interviews today with two camera setups, audio, lighting.  The stuff was just wonderful and I wasn’t even shooting raw yet… So I see video as more of my work and another service to offer.  I really love movies and the added story telling capability.  I ordered a DJI ronin 4d with Leica L mount so all my apo’s will work on that moving cine camera as well.  A great combo using all these together for still and cine I think with the same apo’s.

I’ll just say, I love Everything I am doing with my Leica sl2 and sl2-s cameras.  So they are really hard to beat.
 

I will grab the hassy x2d with several of the 4 new v lenses when I want or need to travel lighter, lower profile, and if I want to shoot strobed environmental portraits outside.  It’s kind of like my slightly larger Leica Q.  Neither the x2d or my q-p get used close to the sl2 cameras, even though I like them all.  The x2d has great ergonomics.  Better than the sl2.  It has good UI but fewer items on the camera (fewer customization / features).  But the viewfinder and its pasm vs pas settings do not make it easy to see your subject when shooting strobe in manual mode with overpowering the sun.  You kind of have to trust it will focus correctly, and check the result after the fact to make sure.  Focusing is normally good. The aspect ratio is not ideal for all subjects.  If you cropped an x2d file to 2x3 I think it would equal…..a 60mp file…  but the Leica can’t really do what the hassy does with those great leaf shutters and strobe.  The x2d is also fairly quiet and a bit less noise than the sl2 in mech shutter mode.  The hassy 90 v lens is a bit louder that the 28,38,and 55.  The Leica sl2 in e-shutter is silent… 

the hassy colors are great with strobe.  The Leica colors are also great with only minor tweaks.  For some reason, I prefer the Leica colors for general outdoor shooting without strobes.  Not sure why but that’s my preference.  I wouldn’t pick one or the other just for the color.  People notice the x2d less.  So even though it is a similar dimension to the sl2, it’s just more of a stealth camera to me.  

I’ve shot indoor studio portraits with the x2d recently, and thought it focused single shot better than the Leica with a higher hit rate.  the face focus mode does not work on the hassy with the back button focus.  So you’ll have to go front shutter button focus to use that.  I don’t really shoot that way but believe the update is very good in that regard.  I like the masking for xpan crop factors.  Not sure I care that it can’t shoot video.  The x2d to me is an extra specialist camera for when you need certain features for that day or assignment.  Could you interchange the sl2 with the hassy in most situations?yes if you don’t need really long lenses.  I use adapted canon lenses on the sl2 up to 800 or longer, and yes they still autofocus and I can use e or mech shutters perfectly.  I would not really ever use the e-shutter on the hassy.  Are the hassy lenses great?  Yes.  Apo Leica great?  No.  Not wide open but sharp in the center and very good when stopped down slightly.  I’d use the hassy lenses regardless of this with wonderful results.  

the hassy also has a big edge to me with dynamic range.  And for landscape shooters would be a great add.

The only reason I would ever pick to own the hassy over the Leica SL cameras is if you loved the aspect ratio, the amazing dynamic range, and the strobe use.  
 

just like we always owned multiple systems back in the film days, 35, 6x7, 4x5, I still think we still need some of that today depending on your specialty or what you want to achieve.  As a commercial shooter, I still need different tools to grab for different assignments / clients.

I will always see the Leica and hassy as complimentary, and both needed.
I'm glad I don’t have to limit my tools…

 

Robb

 

 

[Simone_DF]

 

11 hours ago, Richardgb said:

(if you have reliable sales stats, please share)

Sure. Google is your friend.

According to BCNRankingData, in 2021, right before the launch of the S5, Panasonic only had the 2.8% of full frame market share

https://www.bcnretail.com/market/detail/20210131_210750.html

With the S5 it jumped to about 6%.

Anyway, here's an interview with a French Panasonic product manager from 2023:

https://phototrend-fr.translate.goog/2023/10/interview-panasonic-salon-de-la-photo-2023/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Here's an extract: "Our priority today concerns the more compact S5 range, which better corresponds to demand today."

So, while I'm sure you are perfectly happy with the size of the S1, the rest of people that are supposed to buy it is not.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Here's an extract: "Our priority today concerns the more compact S5 range, which better corresponds to demand today."

So, while I'm sure you are perfectly happy with the size of the S1, the rest of people that are supposed to buy it is not.

The S1 and S1r were aimed at a certain market, and they quickly adjusted their aim with the S5. That's not unusual for a new product line. The S1H (video) was very well received. Obviously, it's a specialized camera with little mass-market appeal, but it seems to be popular within the pro-video jobber market.

One thing I find interesting is how the S1r did, compared to the SL2. The S1r and SL2 have similar features, and the same sensor, but the S1r didn't do as well. It could be that the "high-res" market segment isn't as price-sensitive as other markets. It makes sense when you consider that the SL2 is really competing with Fuji and Hasselblad, not with 50/60 MP full-frame cameras. It will be interesting to see how Panasonic re-positions their high-res camera. There's no point being a "cheaper SL3" if the market is willing to pay for an actual SL3.

[LBJ2]

13 hours ago, robb said:

Peter,

Here is my take on my leica’s vs hassy.

the resolution of 47 vs 100 or 61 vs 100 does not matter at all to me.   I see both current cameras as almost equals but with different uses and high points.

Leica does almost everything extremely well for me.  I’ll generally take two sl2 or sl2-s bodies with me for every assignment along with either a 21,35,75 or 28,50,90 combo.  I’ll add the 90-280 to one of those two sets if needed and primarily use that lens with E-shutter outside.  These will never let you down.  And I also use them on a tripod with multishot and sometimes multishot stitching.  They are fun and easy to use with strobe at 1/250th.  You can see very well with the viewfinder when set to PASM vs PAS mode when shooting flash in manual mode even in a darker room.  It’s not perfect in these situations 100% of the time but almost always good to go.  Extremely bright backlit scenes and dark foreground you wish to strobe in manual, like windows can mess up the viewfinder view of what you can clearly see.

I’ve now blown up photos from the SL2 in multishot mode to 15’ wide.  And in regular single shot mode to like 8’ or more.  You can really count eyelashes and see amazing details on huge blowups.  I’ll give all that credit to the apo primes with a tiny bit of credit to ibis.  The clients are extremely happy.  And I am quite impressed.  I’m a bit disappointed that there’s not a lot more to buy for the sl2 cameras.  I don’t want the wide zoom, or Panasonic rebrands (I’m not knocking them) but the apo’s are the most amazing lenses like… ever, so I really don’t want anything lower in the food chain.  I love the 35mm full frame ratio of 2x3.  I’d absolutely consider an sl3 if the continuous AF took a giant leap.  I’m here to tell you that 47 vs 61 mp I could really care less about.  Because I can do anything with 47mp and do almost everything with the 24mp with the sl2-s with those apo’s.

another exciting new thing for me is starting to use my sl2-s cameras for cine.  I did two documentary interviews today with two camera setups, audio, lighting.  The stuff was just wonderful and I wasn’t even shooting raw yet… So I see video as more of my work and another service to offer.  I really love movies and the added story telling capability.  I ordered a DJI ronin 4d with Leica L mount so all my apo’s will work on that moving cine camera as well.  A great combo using all these together for still and cine I think with the same apo’s.

I’ll just say, I love Everything I am doing with my Leica sl2 and sl2-s cameras.  So they are really hard to beat.
 

I will grab the hassy x2d with several of the 4 new v lenses when I want or need to travel lighter, lower profile, and if I want to shoot strobed environmental portraits outside.  It’s kind of like my slightly larger Leica Q.  Neither the x2d or my q-p get used close to the sl2 cameras, even though I like them all.  The x2d has great ergonomics.  Better than the sl2.  It has good UI but fewer items on the camera (fewer customization / features).  But the viewfinder and its pasm vs pas settings do not make it easy to see your subject when shooting strobe in manual mode with overpowering the sun.  You kind of have to trust it will focus correctly, and check the result after the fact to make sure.  Focusing is normally good. The aspect ratio is not ideal for all subjects.  If you cropped an x2d file to 2x3 I think it would equal…..a 60mp file…  but the Leica can’t really do what the hassy does with those great leaf shutters and strobe.  The x2d is also fairly quiet and a bit less noise than the sl2 in mech shutter mode.  The hassy 90 v lens is a bit louder that the 28,38,and 55.  The Leica sl2 in e-shutter is silent… 

the hassy colors are great with strobe.  The Leica colors are also great with only minor tweaks.  For some reason, I prefer the Leica colors for general outdoor shooting without strobes.  Not sure why but that’s my preference.  I wouldn’t pick one or the other just for the color.  People notice the x2d less.  So even though it is a similar dimension to the sl2, it’s just more of a stealth camera to me.  

I’ve shot indoor studio portraits with the x2d recently, and thought it focused single shot better than the Leica with a higher hit rate.  the face focus mode does not work on the hassy with the back button focus.  So you’ll have to go front shutter button focus to use that.  I don’t really shoot that way but believe the update is very good in that regard.  I like the masking for xpan crop factors.  Not sure I care that it can’t shoot video.  The x2d to me is an extra specialist camera for when you need certain features for that day or assignment.  Could you interchange the sl2 with the hassy in most situations?yes if you don’t need really long lenses.  I use adapted canon lenses on the sl2 up to 800 or longer, and yes they still autofocus and I can use e or mech shutters perfectly.  I would not really ever use the e-shutter on the hassy.  Are the hassy lenses great?  Yes.  Apo Leica great?  No.  Not wide open but sharp in the center and very good when stopped down slightly.  I’d use the hassy lenses regardless of this with wonderful results.  

the hassy also has a big edge to me with dynamic range.  And for landscape shooters would be a great add.

The only reason I would ever pick to own the hassy over the Leica SL cameras is if you loved the aspect ratio, the amazing dynamic range, and the strobe use.  
 

just like we always owned multiple systems back in the film days, 35, 6x7, 4x5, I still think we still need some of that today depending on your specialty or what you want to achieve.  As a commercial shooter, I still need different tools to grab for different assignments / clients.

I will always see the Leica and hassy as complimentary, and both needed.
I'm glad I don’t have to limit my tools…

 

Robb

 

 

Seems to me Leica Product managers should be talking to you!