M6 2022 - Black Shadows on some photos per roll

[250swb]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, Huss said:

I could not imagine something covering up the lens this much without Jewl noticing.  

Yes great call, you are right, he could just chimp the image to see if something was covering the lens. 👍

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Huss]

28 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Yes great call, you are right, he could just chimp the image to see if something was covering the lens. 👍

Think it through...

[madNbad]

Just open the back and look through the film. They do it all the time in the eBay listings.

[Huss]

Remove the lens. Open the camera back.  Lift up the flap so you can see the shutter.  Cycle through the speeds dry firing it and look for anything 'off'.  You should not see the curtains bounce back or drag at any speed.  This is not a fool proof way  of testing the shutter, but if you do see anything with this most rudimentary test, then 100% shutter problem.

p.s with the camera empty!

Edited January 4, 2023 by Huss

[madNbad]

3 minutes ago, Huss said:

Remove the lens. Open the camera back.  Lift up the flap so you can see the shutter.  Cycle through the speeds dry firing it and look for anything 'off'.  You should not see the curtains bounce back or drag at any speed.  This is not a fool proof way  of testing the shutter, but if you do see anything with this most rudimentary test, then 100% shutter problem.

p.s with the camera empty!

Blank paper or should there be some type of marking line?

[Huss]

40 minutes ago, madNbad said:

Blank paper or should there be some type of marking line?

This is a super rudimentary test  so don't need that.  This test just rules out any extremely obvious issues.

It's how I saw my 'just received a full shutter service' M4 had shutter issues, sent it back for a refund.

[williamj]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

10 hours ago, Jewl said:

Hi all,

just received the scans of my first 3 rolls shot with the new M6 released in November. 

I am not sure whether this is normal/should be tolerated but I have out of 2 rolls, ca. 6 photos that have big shadows (2/3 of the picture) - seems the shutter has not properly opened? - The pictures before and after those seem to be properly exposed.

Two examples:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

What do you think? Is this normal when shooting film? (I am quite new, at least to the M6)

Thanks,
Jewl

This looks like a shutter problem for sure, which should be simple to confirm. It looks same but different to what happens when you use a flash at exposures faster than 1/50 on a Leica, except the edges are blurry. What some have been saying, in simple language, is that the second curtain is catching up with the first curtain in your focal plane shutter. It could be lubrication issues of the shutter, if the lubrication dries or stiffens, working the shutter can improve it. At fast exposures you won't be able to observe a change in window width but you may be able to observe this at slower exposures. Importantly, at speeds slower than 1/50 the entire frame will be visible for a short time. If the entire frame is not visible at say 1/15 of a second then you've got a problem. It also means that the shutter appears to work properly at some but not all speeds.

So do what Huss says, remove film from the camera, remove the lens, open the back flap, have a light source (e.g. window) behind, and look through. Here's the difference. Film this in slow motion with your iPhone. At speeds faster than 1/50 you'll see a slit move across, it needs to be the same width all the way, it should not disappear half way across. At speeds slower than 1/50 you have to see the entire frame illuminated. I've used this method to determine that the self timer of my M3 doesn't work, it sounds like it's working, but it's not. The rest of the shutter is fine. It was so obvious I didn't need slow motion to detect it.

Why is this worse than scratched negatives? They don't pull film through the film gate during final testing but they for sure calibrate your shutter before it leaves the factory, they put it up to a machine to determine that it is up to specification. That's why half your respondents are saying it can't be the shutter you must have put something in front of the lens. Leica Ms have been used in the ice and snow, there's plenty of evidence of that, so it's not that it was a chilly day. But the shutter, although new, could have been sitting around for a while and the lubrication might have stiffened. Or any one of tens of possibilities. Cheers.

[andybarton]

35 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

It’s obviously 100% a shutter issue.

It's difficult to tell with the dark photographs, which is why I suggested sharing the ones taken indoors. The shadow doesn't necessarily look horizontal/vertical in the images shared, from what I can see. If you're so sure that it is, then that's fine.

Eliminate all the possibilities in order, starting with the simplest, such as a glove or finger across the lens. before jumping to a conclusion that would require a camera to be sent back for repair / exchange.

 

Edit: I see that the camera is back with Leica to have a loose mount dealt with, so if they already know about this issue, then they can retest the shutter and fix that too, if it is indeed the problem.

[250swb]

The all too easy knee jerk reactions invariably inconvenience the OP rather than the guy authoritatively saying 'send it back', or 'it needs a CLA'. It could be a shutter problem but there may be more to this where the solution doesn't cause any more inconvenience descending on the head of the OP.

Seeing the negatives would help, but we can't, knowing the approximate shutter speeds as well, but this can only be guessed at from the collective practice. The OP says some shots indoors exhibit the problem, so we might assume this is a slow shutter speed, and the outdoor shots are very under exposed so we could assume a fast shutter speed. If it's the shutter it must be totally knackered to be bouncing or capping at slow and fast speeds. Meanwhile I'm still holding off from deciding, on the basis that unlike film scratching have we seen this happen before on a brand new camera? It may be the start of a new trend of failures, or the age old problem of 'finger trouble', and I know which I favour.

[andybarton]

I have never heard of a sticking shutter straight out of the box, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I have only ever had a sticky shutter on my (now) 62 year old M2 (that needed a CLA) and an old IIIg, that was probably 70 years old (ditto).

If the new M6 uses the same shutter as the current MP and MA, I think it highly unlikely that the oils will have hardened while in the factory. Leica are not known for keeping a massive inventory of components, sitting on shelves for years (which is what it would take for a shutter to be sticking through hardened lubricants).

Let's hope that they can sort out both problems quickly and that @Jewl can then get on and enjoy his new camera for many years without any further excitement.

[Fotoklaus]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb andybarton:

I have never heard of a sticking shutter straight out of the box, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I have only ever had a sticky shutter on my (now) 62 year old M2 (that needed a CLA) and an old IIIg, that was probably 70 years old (ditto).

If the new M6 uses the same shutter as the current MP and MA, I think it highly unlikely that the oils will have hardened while in the factory. Leica are not known for keeping a massive inventory of components, sitting on shelves for years (which is what it would take for a shutter to be sticking through hardened lubricants).

Let's hope that they can sort out both problems quickly and that @Jewl can then get on and enjoy his new camera for many years without any further excitement.

If there is a camera failure it might be just not well adjusted.

[earleygallery]

It could be due to sudden electromagnetic interference due to alien activity.

The OP could start by writing letters to the authorities and newspapers to enquire about any reports of UFO sightings around the time the photos were taken and make further investigations, seeking satellite images etc. 

I think it’s best to start with the simple most obvious possibilities first when trying to fault find. 
 

As the OP has a new camera that’s got a loose mount and scratches the film I’d be asking for a replacement at this point regardless of whether the shutter is faulty or not. 
 

 

[williamj]

Andy and Steve make good points which are hard to disagree with. One shouldn't jump to conclusions and, in addition, now that the camera has been returned all one can do is wait. I will say though that of the many things that can be tested on a mechanical camera, the fastest three things are 1) that the aperture adjusts when you turn the ring, that takes a second, 2) that the film is winding on by observing the motion of the rewind crank, that takes a second, and 3) that the shutter is adjusting when you trigger it, that takes a couple of minutes. They can be got out of the way right at the beginning. Anything else, like light tightness, accuracy of focus, and exposure equivalence, i.e. when you shift the shutter speed and the aperture together to give the same exposure, takes hours to days and involves exposing and developing film. Cheers.

[williamj]

I did mention at post #27 that Leica tests exposures using a machine at the factory. But if you’re testing at home you’re not going to have that advantage.  That’s all I mean, and it’s going to take a few hours to establish exposure equivalence if you’re using film. 

[Huss]

12 hours ago, williamj said:

I did mention at post #27 that Leica tests exposures using a machine at the factory. But if you’re testing at home you’re not going to have that advantage.  That’s all I mean, and it’s going to take a few hours to establish exposure equivalence if you’re using film. 

No, you can check the shutter timing in a few minutes using your iphone

https://meownoid.pro/blog/measuring-shutter-speed

Also it is very easy to check for film scratching in a couple of minutes - just feed a roll of film through the camera, pull it out, check for scratches.  Do not develop it!  Scratches are much easier to see on the undeveloped film.

[williamj]

7 hours ago, Huss said:

No, you can check the shutter timing in a few minutes using your iphone

https://meownoid.pro/blog/measuring-shutter-speed

Also it is very easy to check for film scratching in a couple of minutes - just feed a roll of film through the camera, pull it out, check for scratches.  Do not develop it!  Scratches are much easier to see on the undeveloped film.

Thanks Huss, I did also mention in post #27 above that you can use an iPhone to check on the shutter but thanks for adding the link, that’s useful . In this case the OP wasn’t concerned about scratches unless I misread his post but about partly exposed frames.

My point though is that new or new to you equipment ought to be tested first to check that everything is working properly before you start to take photos and not assume that all is ok . 

[williamj]

Anyway Huss, I completely agree, none of this should be happening and we have to keep score or things won’t get better. 

[Jewl]

Alrighty, just received the negatives back from the lab. It seems, this was not a scanning issue as the negatives show the same shadows as the scans. Will send those to Leica as well...

Please see below: 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

Yeah, that is a shutter issue.  Heavy sigh.

[mshchem]

Very cloudy and overcast here but I burned through a roll of TMY in my received yesterday MP. Went through most shutter speeds to check out the shutter,  I'm sure that the MP internals are identical to the 2022 M6.