Sharpness at lower resolution

[Kiwimac]

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With the ability to shoot at 36 and 18 MP I was wondering if doing so lessened the potential for camera shake that 60MP can show with slower shutter speeds etc. 

 

Has anyone tested that?

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[pegelli]

You will see less shake in the file, but if you downsample a 60 MP "shaken image" to 36 or 18 MP it will show the same amount less shake (assuming equal shake).

Or saying it differently, for a given print/screen/projection size a 60 MP sensor will not show more shake than a 36 or 18 MP sensor. The only time you'll notice more shake with a 60 MP sensor is if you pixel peep at 100% because you're magnifying the image much more than if it were a 36 or 18 MP image.

Edited December 25, 2022 by pegelli

[lct]

2 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

With the ability to shoot at 36 and 18 MP I was wondering if doing so lessened the potential for camera shake that 60MP can show with slower shutter speeds etc. 

Has anyone tested that?

Yes and i can't seem to see a significant difference i must say. I need to shoot at min 1/(2f) in any case whatever the resolution. You can perhaps do better if you have more steady hands than mine but for slower shutter speeds i use high res cameras with IBIS or lower res cameras. 

[M11 for me]

There was a Youtube video that explained the phenomenon with graphics. This was an wye opener. Unfortunately I can not find it any more. 

The conclusion was that the story is a myth. It all depends at what size you look at an image taken with 18 or 60 MPix. 

An example: 2 sensors: One 15 the other one 60 MPix. So in 1 single pixel of the first camera you have now 4 pixels of the second camera. So imagine one square divided into 4 squares. Big square is one pixel of the 15 MPix sensor and you overlay 4 small squares that cover the surface of the big square that represent 4 pixels of the 60 MPix camera. Got it?

Now with both cameras you photograph a single dot that is smaller than your big square but bigger than 1 of the small squares. Which image is now sharper and at which size?

Then the youtube video goes on, explaining that an image is not just 1 dot normally. So with camera shake all dots off an image move around. They move across the boundaries of the big square (15 MPix sensor) as a well as across the small squares. So what is the sharper sharper now?

The 60 MPix always give you more resolution. If you want to fully exploit that additiinal resolution you have to make sure to use a faster shutter speed. 

[geotrupede]

60 is more, not doubt. In my experience 18 are more than enough, even with some aggressive crops. it saves me lot of room and not an issue in printing to A4 for please or at large format if needed. I once had some images printed 6 x 3m large from the MM1 / M9 and was all fine as a wallpaper in a gallery. So my advice is go for small footprint. G.

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb geotrupede:

In my experience 18 are more than enough

And what would you answer if I pretended that 1 MPix is plenty? 

 

[pgk]

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5 hours ago, M11 for me said:

The 60 MPix always give you more resolution.

No it doesn't.

[DenverSteve]

Since you have the camera, do the tests yourself. How you do it is what matters. The MP size won't make a difference, if you move, you move. You simply have to fine tune your technique to eliminate shake. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by DenverSteve

[geotrupede]

5 hours ago, M11 for me said:

And what would you answer if I pretended that 1 MPix is plenty? 

 

that it depends on intended use, to run computer vision it would be plenty.

of course 100 has more pixels, etc.  it is all to do with purpose, and everything comes with a cost: 60 files are larger than 18 what a surprise. for me the quality difference is not visible, but file size is, so happy to dials the S. I do not need to zoom 4x or print large crops. if you do then 60 may be advisable. but then 100 would be better...

G.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by geotrupede

[Kiwimac]

I don’t have the camera. At present, I have a GFX100 system which I love but don’t use enough due to weight and bulk. 
 

I’m planning on shortly trading it for either an M11 or an M10R. 

[geotrupede]

Just now, Kiwimac said:

I don’t have the camera. At present, I have a GFX100 system which I love but don’t use enough due to weight and bulk. 
 

I’m planning on shortly trading it for either an M11 or an M10R. 

GFX100 it is colossal but quite beautiful. The M is like a little toy in comparison. The first time I picked up the M11 (black) the impression was "too light, a point and shoot". but I came to appreciated the lightness of it, in fact I would never go back to the previous heavier versions (perhaps with the exception of M10).

A caveat from what people write in earlier messages, if you need the 100MP for some odd reasons, the 60MP is less so you will downgrade in file size. I would prefer lighter and smaller but maybe give it a try before the purchase.

And if you like small and light consider the MS optical lenses. Some are really good and all super light, we talk 70 grams for the 28!

G>

 

[M11 for me]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Kiwimac:

’m planning on shortly trading it for either an M11 or an M10R

Great. Another Leica fan!!

[dpitt]

2 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I don’t have the camera. At present, I have a GFX100 system which I love but don’t use enough due to weight and bulk. 
 

I’m planning on shortly trading it for either an M11 or an M10R. 

That was the first reason why I switched to the M system. Now that I am used to it, compactness and weight are still important, but the way the RF makes me think about the photo before I take it seems to have even more value than the first reason.

MP count is relative, not only to the way the picture is used, but also between cameras. Its the effective amount of sharp pixels that count. M’s pixels can be very effective compared to other makes of FF camera’s. I would not be surprised if the M11 beats the sharpness of  a 100MP FF with the same lens. All I know is that in Leica, I need about 10MP net after cropping to enlarge infinitely. In some other brands I found that 20MP net is just barely the same.

[Kiwimac]

I don’t need 102MP for anything really. The rendering and colour science in the GFX100 is wonderful and its a camera I will miss. 
 

I have missed my M cameras since I sold the 240. 
 

The M11 (or 10-R) would be more than adequate. My thinking at present is M11 and Voigtlander Apo Lanthar 50. 
 

No other lenses. Just shoot that for a year and see whether I genuinely feel I need another focal length. 
 

I have too many for the GFX - 30, 45-100, 100-200 and 250. 
 

I thought of keeping the body but honestly if I had a 60MP option like an M I’d never use the Fuji. 
 

The dealer said if I wanted a reliable option I should buy a Sony A7r V and put M glass on it. 

[M Street Photographer]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Kiwimac:

...The dealer said if I wanted a reliable option I should buy a Sony A7r V and put M glass on it. 

No Please not. Again and again I have found that lenses for the Leica M Mount produce poorer imaging performance on a Sony R IV / V.
This applies not only to WW lenses that are wider than 28 mm, but also to 50 mm like the Summilux 50 1.4.
One of the reasons for this is that the sensor glass of the Sony is considerably thicker than that of the Leica sensor.

I recommend M lenses on M cameras. If you own a Sony and M lenses, you can of course use them, with a loss of quality.
But buying a Sony R and then using M lenses would be unpleasant. And in the long run you would be angry and disappointed.

Edited December 27, 2022 by M Street Photographer

[lct]

58 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

The dealer said if I wanted a reliable option I should buy a Sony A7r V and put M glass on it.

Sure but the Sony sensor stack would have to be modded by Kolari Vision or same because it is too thick otherwise. Works fine for me but it adds to the cost and voids the Sony warranty. Not sure your dealer has envisioned that.

[M Street Photographer]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb lct:

Sure but the Sony sensor stack would have to be modded by Kolari Vision or same because it is too thick otherwise. Works fine for me but it adds to the cost and voids the Sony warranty. Not sure your dealer has envisioned that.

I doubt that the dealer is aware of the problem. I think the recommendation to buy a Sony R in order to use M lenses is more than questionable.

Maybe he also recommends the Tech Art Adapter to use an Af with the M lenses? 🤔

[lct]

4 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said:

I doubt that the dealer is aware of the problem. I think the recommendation to buy a Sony R in order to use M lenses is more than questionable.

Maybe he also recommends the Tech Art Adapter to use an Af with the M lenses? 🤔

No idea what this dealer is selling actually but the Techart adapter works fine with M lenses, the way i use it at least. I don't use it much TBH but it is a good idea for those who need some help to focus manually their M lenses IMHO. Sorry for the OT.

 

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[M Street Photographer]

@lct There is a difference if you have a Sony and some M lenses, or if the recommendation is to buy a Sony R V camera separately for M lenses.
In your case it also makes sense to use the Techart adapter, as it works well.

[Kiwimac]

The dealer was really expressing an opinion about reliability more than anything else.