M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[lct]

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9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m curious at your assumption that some bodies don’t freeze.  If true, that would suggest variance in hardware or software.  Surely a more likely assumption is that the hardware is (largely) all the same and there is no variance in firmware.  It follows that all M11 cameras will freeze if set up and used in the same way?

It’s amazing that such a common problem hasn’t been sorted in the months since the camera was beta tested then released.

My M11 does not freeze at all but my question was related to what could be the cause or one of the causes of such freezes, namely the fact that some uncoded lenses are treated as coded ones by selecting an option (lens detection auto) that cannot work given that the lens cannot be detected by definition. Seems like i won't have the answer here but that sort of conflicting situation should be avoided by Leica IMHO.

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[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, lct said:

My M11 does not freeze at all but my question was related to what could be the cause or one of the causes of such freezes, namely the fact that some uncoded lenses are treated as coded ones by selecting an option (lens detection auto) that cannot work given that the lens cannot be detected by definition. Seems like i won't have the answer here but that sort of conflicting situation should be avoided by Leica IMHO.

The fact that your M11 doesn’t freeze doesn’t mean that it won’t.  I think it is fair to say that all M11 cameras will freeze given the combination or series of combinations required.  The M11 is Leica’s flagship - it amazes me the issue still isn’t resolved.  My one worry is that, if it is a firmware issue, Leica would have fixed it by now; if it’s a hardware issue, that would require a general recall (we know Leica won’t do that).  Leica’s track record on resolving hardware problems has been to hope the issue goes away (most owners being like you, not triggering freezes, so not worrying).

[hdmesa]

36 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

...that would suggest variance in hardware or software.  Surely a more likely assumption is that the hardware is (largely) all the same and there is no variance in firmware....

I think you're missing that the hardware electronic components can vary in production quality from essentially flawless to significant failure rates. Some of those failures could be catastrophic (bricked bodies), but some could have intermittent malfunctions.

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The fact that your M11 doesn’t freeze doesn’t mean that it won’t....

I think this is true; however, we could say that for any camera. The type of freezing that has been fixed thus far have been freezes during operation. The remaining freeze issue is mainly freeze on startup, wake from sleep, shutdown – all power-related functions.

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I think it is fair to say that all M11 cameras will freeze given the combination or series of combinations required...

Not necessarily. Variances in hardware performance combined with a firmware glitch could affect only certain cameras. Personally, I think the remaining issue cannot be repeated nor provoked with any combination of settings or conditions. If it could be, I think we would have discovered this as a group. We have all thoroughly and exhaustively compared notes, settings, SD cards, etc. It think it comes down to finding that line or lines of code that get interrupted when certain units have hardware hiccups but necessarily hardware malfunctions or failures.

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

...The M11 is Leica’s flagship - it amazes me the issue still isn’t resolved...

This is one issue I'm sure they are painfully aware of. As I understand it, the M11 firmware had to be a complete rewrite to accommodate the new full-time live view and new shutter sequence required to make that work. It would be like starting all over again without the benefit of all the debugging they did since the M8. Add to that the still-lingering supply chain issues for electronic components that have affected quality and reliability.

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

...My one worry is that, if it is a firmware issue, Leica would have fixed it by now; if it’s a hardware issue, that would require a general recall (we know Leica won’t do that).  Leica’s track record on resolving hardware problems has been to hope the issue goes away (most owners being like you, not triggering freezes, so not worrying).

I would have the same worry except I now have an M11 Monochrom which is flawless – over 1K photos over several weeks without a single hiccup. I'm using the same SD card, uncoded and coded lenses, thumb grip, even the same two batteries I used with my freezing M11s. We know the M11M firmware has to be slightly different, so they could look for differences there. Last reported M11M freeze on this forum was in May of this year, and that person was going to try some SD card formatting suggestions. There has not been any followups, so I'm assuming M11M freezes probably follow the same that the M10 and Q2 variants did – mostly SD card or use-case that are identifiable. 

 

 

[lct]

18 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

The fact that your M11 doesn’t freeze doesn’t mean that it won’t.  I think it is fair to say that all M11 cameras will freeze given the combination or series of combinations required.  The M11 is Leica’s flagship - it amazes me the issue still isn’t resolved.  My one worry is that, if it is a firmware issue, Leica would have fixed it by now; if it’s a hardware issue, that would require a general recall (we know Leica won’t do that).  Leica’s track record on resolving hardware problems has been to hope the issue goes away (most owners being like you, not triggering freezes, so not worrying).

We cannot agree on all this but it does not matter anyway. Freezes are not a new thing at Leica. Most of them have been fixed by the current 1.6.1 firmware and the remaining ones will be fixed soon or late anyway. Not too late hopefully as the  last camera freeze bug has been fixed in April 2016 on the M240 i.e. almost 4 years after its launch...

[neonvoid]

On 8/22/2023 at 11:32 PM, lct said:

We cannot agree on all this but it does not matter anyway. Freezes are not a new thing at Leica. Most of them have been fixed by the current 1.6.1 firmware and the remaining ones will be fixed soon or late anyway. Not too late hopefully as the  last camera freeze bug has been fixed in April 2016 on the M240 i.e. almost 4 years after its launch...

You can keep downplaying the issue and offering usage practices that no consumer should ever have to do.
At this point I'm not even sure what your agenda here is. Instead of seeing actual useful info in this thread all I see is your repeated posts from a perspective of someone who has no freezing issues.

No amount of consulting or good will is going to change the fact that Leica released a faulty product.
Consumers should not be responsible for diagnosis efforts. This camera costs a fortune and Leica should act accordingly.

[IkarusJohn]

7 minutes ago, neonvoid said:

You can keep downplaying the issue and offering usage practices that no consumer should ever have to do.
At this point I'm not even sure what your agenda here is. Instead of seeing actual useful info in this thread all I see is your repeated posts from a perspective of someone who has no freezing issues.

No amount of consulting or good will is going to change the fact that Leica released a faulty product.
Consumers should not be responsible for diagnosis efforts. This camera costs a fortune and Leica should act accordingly.

While I have had my fair share of issues with my digital Leicas, and Customer Services have done a great job (for me), I have to agree with this.  Conceptually, great cameras; poor implementation.  They look and feel fabulous, but they’re an expensive way to keep the door open.

[neonvoid]

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On 8/22/2023 at 11:31 PM, hdmesa said:

so I'm assuming M11M freezes probably follow the same that the M10 and Q2 variants did – mostly SD card or use-case that are identifiable

I'm using using internal storage for the last couple of months, with only one lens attached to the camera perpetually (Lux 50 ASPH) and have freezes.
I had freezes with an SD card also.

So I wish we finally stop the flow of useless advice.

The fact that Leica is quiet about this is indicative enough for me of the fact that they are clueless or just can't fix it.
All it takes is one simple statement from Leica to put the endless speculations to rest.

[neonvoid]

2 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

While I have had my fair share of issues with my digital Leicas, and Customer Services have done a great job (for me), I have to agree with this.  Conceptually, great cameras; poor implementation.  They look and feel fabulous, but they’re an expensive way to keep the door open.

It's almost as if Leica users have been conditioned to accept bugs as exotic features.

[lct]

2 hours ago, neonvoid said:

You can keep downplaying the issue and offering usage practices that no consumer should ever have to do.
At this point I'm not even sure what your agenda here is. Instead of seeing actual useful info in this thread all I see is your repeated posts from a perspective of someone who has no freezing issues.

Sorry to give you this feeling. I try to help less fortunate colleagues the best i can here but i won't hide the simple truth either. I've been an M user since 1971, i began with an M4 that i had to sell but i kept my M3, M4-2, M6J, M8.2, M240 and the current M11. In spite of limits i can live without (lack of IBIS, stapler sound), to me the best of them is, by far, the M11. Got a couple freezes before firmware 1.6.1, and none since then. Simple truth. No agenda. What for? I'm a retired lawyer, not a camera dealer.

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, neonvoid said:

I'm using using internal storage for the last couple of months, with only one lens attached to the camera perpetually (Lux 50 ASPH) and have freezes.
I had freezes with an SD card also.

So I wish we finally stop the flow of useless advice.

The fact that Leica is quiet about this is indicative enough for me of the fact that they are clueless or just can't fix it.
All it takes is one simple statement from Leica to put the endless speculations to rest.

I was talking specifically about the M11 Monochrom, are you? With regard to the M11, I’ve said the same thing you just did, which is SD cards are not the problem.

Edited August 24, 2023 by hdmesa

[maxpower]

5 hours ago, neonvoid said:

You can keep downplaying the issue and offering usage practices that no consumer should ever have to do.
At this point I'm not even sure what your agenda here is. Instead of seeing actual useful info in this thread all I see is your repeated posts from a perspective of someone who has no freezing issues.

It is important to note that not everybody has freezing issues simply because not everybody has freezing issues, in this thread everybody has been trying to be helpful and diagnose possible combinations of settings and/or equipment which in turn is helpful information to give to Leica for fixing it. The fact that 1.6.1 has fixed freezing for a lot of people is evidence of this. Ones that actually bricked had faulty hardware from my understanding, but that was much less widespread.

There has been plenty of useful information in this thread that is now 87 pages, but there is not a magic fix hidden in one of the comments. People post experiences, people react with experiences, people try to find commonalities, what more do you expect from a thread like this? 

[lct]

•

Edited August 24, 2023 by lct

[charlesphoto99]

@maxpower One does not need to re-iterate again and again that their camera functions fine when another user is having a problem. Less than helpful actually. Gets your comment count up I guess, but otherwise it just becomes more noise, esp when it happens page after page after page. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

[...] SD cards are not the problem [...]

SD cards seemed to be the only problem for me before firmware 1.6.1. First freeze with a Sony Tough card in May 2022  and  couple of freezes with UHS2 Sandisk cards afterwards. UHS1 Sandisk cards seemed to fix my issues for good then but since firmware 1.6.1 i use both UHS1 and UHS2 Sandisk cards with no problem at all. Oops did i utter a forbidden truth once again?

 

[Jeff S]

On 8/22/2023 at 6:31 PM, hdmesa said:

Last reported M11M freeze on this forum was in May of this year, and that person was going to try some SD card formatting suggestions. 

 

 

No, there are at least two different people reporting M11M freezes on recent pages, in August (posts 1717, 1720).  I haven’t looked at posts prior to that. 

Jeff

Edited August 24, 2023 by Jeff S

[neonvoid]

.

Edited August 24, 2023 by neonvoid

[neonvoid]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Indeed but it may serve to keep the attention on SD cards since some people like me go on thinking that memory cards and/or the way Leica manages them can be at least partly the culprit. Reason why one of my tips is to format any card with SD Card Formatter before inserting them in the camera. Worked fine since 2014 with all my cameras for me. YMMV.

Yes, every single post of yours mentions that it worked for you, we get it.

[neonvoid]

7 minutes ago, lct said:

Reason why one of my tips is to format any card with SD Card Formatter

This is voodoo, which is apparent to people with minimal technical background and your advice is a disservice, as far as I'm concerned.

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[charlesphoto99]

13 minutes ago, neonvoid said:

This is voodoo, which is apparent to people with minimal technical background and your advice is a disservice, as far as I'm concerned.

And an absolutely ridiculous proposition of something supposedly one has to do to get the best performance out of a nearly $10k camera body.

Edited August 24, 2023 by charlesphoto99

[lct]

6 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

And an absolutely ridiculous proposition of something supposedly one has to do to get the best performance out of a nearly $10k camera body.

Why being that negative? Try my tips if you didn't or suggest yours, if any, unless complaining is your only solution.