M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Loplop]

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7 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

Elmars, I just want to say that I for one appreciate your continuing offers of help and advice to we who have jumped into the "M11 waters" hoping that we can swim in this pond well enough soon. You aren't connected with Leica I believe, just a "tester" now and again but your quick responses to often dumb, well mine anyway, questions on our new pieces of kit contrast with Leica's almost complete silence when there's pleas for help. Leica really should consider starting an online "Help and Advice" section / blog on their website where the dazed and confused could turn to get some real direct answers to their questions rather than just flounder around asking other users for help...............Yes I know about the "contact customer service? email address, I am still waiting an answer on a question posed three weeks ago, ( and you resolved for me ).

Most companies shy away from online free discussion due to the fact that happy customers don’t usually comment in numbers as frequently as unhappy customers.  Thus, as suggested by another poster above, issues can attain proportions out of proportion with the issue, and impact both sales and customer satisfaction.  I have no insight into Leica here, but they may be satisfied with the number and depth of enthusiast forums in this regard.  I think if they hired a person to be a technical representative on these forums, that would be a great next step.  The key is it just can’t be a “social media coordinator” just relating “we care, please contact our special help number 800-Leicacares” (which isn’t special and the agent has no real power to assist).  The ideal person would have Leica knowledge, access to troubleshooting documents, and a direct connection to internal escalation agents.

Four what it’s worth, I’ve contacted Leica twice. Once via email, which I got a response to within the same business day (sent around 8am, response at around 4:30pm).  I used the Leicausa.repair@leica-camera.com address  

The second time I called, and after waiting on the phone for about 20-25 mins, talked to a live person. The number I called was 800-222-0118

If you haven’t received a response in three weeks you probably never will. I’d send another ticket in and call them. I hope that helps, good luck!

[hjddd]

My new M11-D has the intermittent over exposure during its first 40 shots，so I am waiting for the new firmware now ， too

[Derbyshire Man]

21 minutes ago, hjddd said:

My new M11-D has the intermittent over exposure during its first 40 shots，so I am waiting for the new firmware now ， too

You’ll probably find that you’ll not get it again for another 3,000 shots, I’ve found it highly sporadic across the M’s. 

[SiggiGun]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Loplop:

FWIW, in my case, none of my freezes were related to me touching anything after turning on the camera. I can say that because in most cases, I switch on the camera in anticipation of taking a shot at some point in the near future; I then some minutes later go to take a shot and find the camera unresponsive.  I’ve been shooting for many decades, starting with film and no meter where I’d have to meter before each shot which took some time, so my habit is still “get the camera ready before you need it” 😂 

Now what I’m much less sure of is if the red light ever came on. I have a video of a freeze I took for the dealer and I see on the video that the red light on the back of the camera was not on. I do not watch that light when booting, so I have no idea if it ever was on before I took the video. 

In at least a few cases I never heard the shutter open, which clued me in to something being awry. Maybe that helps. 

 

OK, I understand what you are saying. However, one thing is important: the red LED must light up. If it doesn't, then something went wrong at startup. In that case, the shutter won't move either. 

This makes me wonder whether it could be the on/off switch, or that something went wrong the last time it was turned off. Then the camera 'hangs' in an undefined state. 

 

 

[lct]

1 hour ago, SiggiGun said:

[...] one thing is important: the red LED must light up. If it doesn't, then something went wrong at startup. In that case, the shutter won't move either [...]

Happened to me from time to time under FW 2.1.2 too. In the best cases, half pressing the shutter release is enough to fix the problem and in the worse cases, i must pop up not only the battery but also the SD card to solve the issue. Happened to me with v90 Delkin, Sandisk and Sony cards, less so with v90 ProGrade cards that i'm using now almost exclusively. FWIW.

Edited October 6, 2024 by lct

[elmars]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Loplop:

Now what I’m much less sure of is if the red light ever came on. I have a video of a freeze I took for the dealer and I see on the video that the red light on the back of the camera was not on. I do not watch that light when booting, so I have no idea if it ever was on before I took the video. 

I reported Your case to Leica. Let us see what happens.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb hjddd:

My new M11-D has the intermittent over exposure during its first 40 shots，so I am waiting for the new firmware now ， too

Leica is not only working on the start-up process, but also on the problem of overexposure. However, you shouldn't expect miracles with the latter. There are not only the extreme overexposures (always approx. 3 f-stops), which in my opinion are a bug; there are also ‘normal’ incorrect exposures that are not so extreme. In my opinion, the M11's multi-segment metering algorithm is not particularly sophisticated and occasionally misses the mark. However, the sensor is so good that this can be easily compensated for in image processing.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Smudgerer:

Elmars, I just want to say that I for one appreciate your continuing offers of help and advice to we who have jumped into the "M11 waters" hoping that we can swim in this pond well enough soon. You aren't connected with Leica I believe, just a "tester" now and again but your quick responses to often dumb, well mine anyway, questions on our new pieces of kit contrast with Leica's almost complete silence when there's pleas for help. Leica really should consider starting an online "Help and Advice" section / blog on their website where the dazed and confused could turn to get some real direct answers to their questions rather than just flounder around asking other users for help...............Yes I know about the "contact customer service? email address, I am still waiting an answer on a question posed three weeks ago, ( and you resolved for me ).

Thank you, I'm glad if I can help. When I joined the Leica Forum almost 25 years ago, I also benefited from the help of others.

Over the years I have got to know a few Leica people more or less. That helps to accommodate problems, requests and questions. And yes, I'm a Leica fan boy, but that doesn't mean I have an uncritical distance. I always urge more open communication. In my view, the Freeze problem was not initially well managed in this respect. There were no more freezes in the beta test, but when they appeared in customers practice, Leica didn't take them seriously at first. But they have been working on it with a lot of manpower for almost a year now. The causes seem to be very complex and sometimes difficult to find, but I think most of them have been solved.

[Kim Dahl]

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2 hours ago, elmars said:

I reported Your case to Leica. Let us see what happens.

Leica is not only working on the start-up process, but also on the problem of overexposure. However, you shouldn't expect miracles with the latter. There are not only the extreme overexposures (always approx. 3 f-stops), which in my opinion are a bug; there are also ‘normal’ incorrect exposures that are not so extreme. In my opinion, the M11's multi-segment metering algorithm is not particularly sophisticated and occasionally misses the mark. However, the sensor is so good that this can be easily compensated for in image processing.

Thank you, I'm glad if I can help. When I joined the Leica Forum almost 25 years ago, I also benefited from the help of others.

Over the years I have got to know a few Leica people more or less. That helps to accommodate problems, requests and questions. And yes, I'm a Leica fan boy, but that doesn't mean I have an uncritical distance. I always urge more open communication. In my view, the Freeze problem was not initially well managed in this respect. There were no more freezes in the beta test, but when they appeared in customers practice, Leica didn't take them seriously at first. But they have been working on it with a lot of manpower for almost a year now. The causes seem to be very complex and sometimes difficult to find, but I think most of them have been solved.

Leica is not only working on the start-up process, but also on the problem of overexposure. However, you shouldn't expect miracles with the latter. There are not only the extreme overexposures (always approx. 3 f-stops), which in my opinion are a bug; there are also ‘normal’ incorrect exposures that are not so extreme. In my opinion, the M11's multi-segment metering algorithm is not particularly sophisticated and occasionally misses the mark. However, the sensor is so good that this can be easily compensated for in image processing.

-----

 

Hi, I would also like to say thank you for writing back to us. Even if it's not your "problem". Many thanks for that.

It gives the impression that Leica is listening and (MAYBE) doing/can do something about it. It is unsafe to make a purchase.

I'm really nervous about replacing my MD with an M11D if it can't expose the images properly. And maybe freezes too.

For most people, the price of a Leica is a big decision and I have to save for a long time to buy. ...

I have an M11D standing purchased - but not opened. I hardly dare to open it. And as long as it is unopened - it can be returned.

Thanks again you can't do more.

Heard from Leica's mouth. If there is an answer Fri Leica - please write. Thanks again 🙂

But I really wanted to know if they will fix the overexposure problem...?

 

[pedaes]

6 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

It is unsafe to make a purchase.

 

I think there needs to be a degree of perspective here. Remember, we tend to hear more of problems and whilst not belittling them, so far (touch wood🤔) I for one have experienced zero issues.

[elmars]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Kim Dahl:

if it can't expose the images properly. And maybe freezes too.

My advice would be: you shouldn't be too careful. Freezes have become very rare, another cause will be eliminated shortly. It is similar with the extreme overexposures. Apart from that, no exposure metering system is infallible, the one on the M11 is just perhaps a little worse than that of Canon/Nikon etc. But that's nothing that makes the pictures unusable.

The M11-D (like all M) is a great camera. Once you've photographed with the sensor, you won't want anything else. Perhaps your caution stems from the fact that you are not sure whether a camera without a display is right for you. In this case, I would advise you to send it back and ask the dealer to lend you one to try out for a few days. Most dealers will do this, but it can take a while with newly released cameras.

[Kim Dahl]

Thanks for the answer. Yes, I know M without a screen.

I already have a Leica MD - which is also without a screen - a nice camera.

Therefore, I would like to "upgrade" to the new censor and new functions in M11.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

...I'm really nervous about replacing my MD with an M11D if it can't expose the images properly. And maybe freezes too...

...But I really wanted to know if they will fix the overexposure problem...?

 

My M11-D has been rock solid, not a single freeze so far. So few people have that overexposure issue, it may be a sign that its related to a combination of less popular settings and/or shooting behavior (not meaning to blame the user, just speculating as to why the issue is so rare).

If it helps build confidence, I have been able to use Sony Tough SD cards with my M11-D, which is something I could have never done previously on the M11/M11M I owned. I'm not sure if SD card compatibility was expanded in the current firmware or if the D is just immune to issues with Sony cards because it can't format the cards in-camera.

Edited October 6, 2024 by hdmesa
editing the quote

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

My M11-D has been rock solid, not a single freeze so far. So few people have that overexposure issue, it may be a sign that its related to a combination of less popular settings and/or shooting behavior (not meaning to blame the user, just speculating as to why the issue is so rare).

If it helps build confidence, I have been able to use Sony Tough SD cards with my M11-D, which is something I could have never done previously on the M11/M11M I owned. I'm not sure if SD card compatibility was expanded in the current firmware or if the D is just immune to issues with Sony cards because it can't format the cards in-camera.

You knew I’d be along! I don’t agree about the user bit, I’ve had it on all my M11 series infrequently, usually as a one off but also slap bang in the middle of a set of images where I simply took another shot at a very slightly different angle/different expression. Suddenly it’s 3 stops over exposed. Also highly suggestive of it being a bug is that it was a random jump in ISO, since the tweaks that seems to have been fixed but instead it is now dropping the aperture, including to aperture ranges that the lens simply doesn’t have, so my 35mm summilux f1.4 FLE was suddenly a 35mm f0.95 according to the EXIF!

Leica need to 100% own this (which to be fair they do), not users, don’t give them the wriggle room!

Caveat is that is very infrequent and not something I’d worry about, while obviously more of an issue on a camera without a rear screen for chimping, it’s infinitely less frequent than exposure surprises on actual real film! The M11D is my favourite camera I’ve ever used. 

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

You knew I’d be along! I don’t agree about the user bit, I’ve had it on all my M11 series infrequently, usually as a one off but also slap bang in the middle of a set of images where I simply took another shot at a very slightly different angle/different expression. Suddenly it’s 3 stops over exposed. Also highly suggestive of it being a bug is that it was a random jump in ISO, since the tweaks that seems to have been fixed but instead it is now dropping the aperture, including to aperture ranges that the lens simply doesn’t have, so my 35mm summilux f1.4 FLE was suddenly a 35mm f0.95 according to the EXIF!

Leica need to 100% own this (which to be fair they do), not users, don’t give them the wriggle room!

Caveat is that is very infrequent and not something I’d worry about, while obviously more of an issue on a camera without a rear screen for chimping, it’s infinitely less frequent than exposure surprises on actual real film! The M11D is my favourite camera I’ve ever used. 

I don't doubt it's a firmware issue, as @elmars confirmed Leica is aware of the problem and working on it. My comment was in reference to the fact that the issue seems to be less reported than other issues with the M11. That may be because it requires a setting or combination of settings that are less frequently used.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

...highly suggestive of it being a bug is that it was a random jump in ISO...

This is why I recommended earlier to someone else that they try turning off the Auto ISO setting for automatic maximum exposure. Instead select a fixed shutter speed. I would love to know if that alone prevents the random overexposure.

[Loplop]

I have not yet had the overexposure issue with +3 stops in shooting this M11. The meter may not be as “foolproof” as modern Canon (for instance), but it’s also not tying face detection and/or the focus point to the meter which can also be a bit of an annoyance as shot-to/shot variability goes up a lot. 

FWIW, I found the metering on the M11 to be pretty solid, and very consistent.  I have no qualms about the metering. It’s not as sophisticated, but it seems predictable, which is fine. 

[Loplop]

I saw new firmware 2.1.3 was available this morning, and has a note about startup freezes. I have applied and will see if I have an issue after.

Fortunately, or unfortunately depending upon how you look at it, I have bought another M11 which is en route. The store I bought this one from received another M11 on trade, this one a much more recent build with ~2.5 years of warranty. I bought it, and when it arrives, will need to send this one back. I may or may not have enough shooting time to trigger the freeze between now and then, although I will do my best. 

I actually had a freeze when turning on the camera for the first time today.  How ironic that I was planning to install the firmware!  😂 

[Jon D]

Just taken 3 shots, my M11M has now bricked itself. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Battery out, wait a few minutes, battery back in, nothing. I think the shutter curtain may have locked itself open. For a nearly 10k piece of equipment this is completely unacceptable. 

[Loplop]

Really sorry to hear that.  I wonder if there’sa secret combination of steps to unbrick?  Or is that a trip to Leica for sure?

My freezes on the 1st M11 always resolved with a battery pop  

To that end, an update: I only had the 1st M11 for one day with the new firmware, and I didn’t see another freeze—but to be fair I only shot ~5 frames or so as I was sort busy. It’s possible the new firmware averted a freeze, though, as one time I turned it on it took about 20 seconds to start.  Prior to the new firmware that for sure would have been a freeze.

I’ve had the 2nd M11 for 3 weeks now, and absolutely zero freezes. Much happier!

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, Jon D said:

this is completely unacceptable. 

Agreed, and hopefully you have already returned it for an exchange.

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[SiggiGun]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Jon D:

Just taken 3 shots, my M11M has now bricked itself. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Battery out, wait a few minutes, battery back in, nothing. I think the shutter curtain may have locked itself open. For a nearly 10k piece of equipment this is completely unacceptable. 

Have you checked whether the "Sensor cleaning" function is activated?