M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Kiwimac]

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Good that generally the trend seems more positive. 
 

It must be difficult to reconcile being the Rolex of cameras, with a reputation for slow and steady innovation and paramount reliability, with modern photographic reality where sensors and technology evolve at huge speed in comparison to the days of film. 

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[Adam Bonn]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

It must be difficult to reconcile being the Rolex of cameras, with a reputation for slow and steady innovation and paramount reliability, with modern photographic reality where sensors and technology evolve at huge speed in comparison to the days of film. 

I'm not sure that Leica is the Rolex of cameras tbh, mainly Rolex hasn't embraced the digital age... there's no Rolex smart watch (not even a quartz one since -iirc- the 70s), so they're not at the mercy of FW and compatibility with 3rd party electronics

And most importantly....

The role of Rolex has changed, you don't buy a submariner to track your dive time anymore (you have a dive computer for that) or a daytona to time fast laps (race cars have transponders now), you buy a Rolex because it's special and you want it and cherish it (well I did, OMMV)

I know some folks here earn their money shooting Leica as full time pros, and obviously it can be done... but equally when you see sports and press 'togs at work capturing the decisive moment they don't tend to be holding Leica Ms do they?

With high end goods one tends to pay for the cachet of ownership or the cachet of a true work horse (that's why Lamborghinis and combine harvesters cost roughly the same) 

Of course you can dive with your submariner, drive your Ferrari as an Uber driver, and be a photographer with your Leica.

But for MANY professionals, when they find the cheapest most reliable product that offers the best VFM proposition they need not look further...

James Bond may have have a Rolex 6538 Submariner issued by his employer and real life 1970s military divers got mil subs...

But these days it's all g-shocks and Citizens I'm afraid.

 

[lct]

25 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I'm not sure that Leica is the Rolex of cameras tbh, mainly Rolex hasn't embraced the digital age... there's no Rolex smart watch (not even a quartz one since -iirc- the 70s), so they're not at the mercy of FW and compatibility with 3rd party electronics [...]

Interesting comparison. The Rolex Oysterquartz stopped in the early 2000s, from memory, due to lack of innovation. Rolex preferred to retreat into conservatism rather than explore new horizons such as solar and radio control to name a few. This was not necessarily a bad choice for a watch, but staying stuck in the past is not the best thing one can dream of for Leica.

[Kiwimac]

I was more referring there to brand feel. If you want a more direct watch comparison, Grand Seiko make quartz watches in cases equal to Rolex. 
 

I think part of Leica’s schtick is the made in Germany, assembled by hand, milled from blocks of granite reliability thing and that’s part of why people pay NZ$15,500 for an M11 - half the price of a new Honda Jazz. 
 

Fortunately for Leica, the Japanese have not really applied themselves to Rangefinder stuff in the modern era. However if they were to do so I’m sure that they could produce something similar with Toyota or Grand Seiko reliability.  Look at the Apo Lanthar lenses for example. 
 

Leica need to protect that reliability, dependability part of the product/brand better, I think. 

[jakontil]

May be the new M6/ MP or MA is the rolex 

[lct]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

Fortunately for Leica, the Japanese have not really applied themselves to Rangefinder stuff in the modern era. However if they were to do so I’m sure that they could produce something similar with Toyota or Grand Seiko reliability. [...]

I seem to have been hearing this for half a century more or less. Only digital "competitors" so far have been Pixii currently after Epson in 2004. Been there with Epson, i liked much the R-D1 and R-D1s but reliability is not the word that comes to mind when I think of them. The way things are going, Leica can sleep soundly from this point of view.

[Stonewall Brigade]

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18 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

Would those who have M11's that have exhibited issues say that in general firmware has advanced to a point where the camera is reasonably reliable now?

I am on my 3rd M11. The first one, new out of the box, had a broken function button that was sticking up ¼ inch above the camera's top plate. And it wold freeze. I returned it to my dealer in exchange for another new M11. That second one froze many times, could not be turned off, and began to record the images "upside down". I shipped that one to Leica Customer Care in New Jersey, USA. Leica then sent me a third new M11, which was already installed with the newest 1.6.0 firmware. I have had no problems with it thus far.

[Kiwimac]

1 hour ago, Stonewall Brigade said:

I am on my 3rd M11. The first one, new out of the box, had a broken function button that was sticking up ¼ inch above the camera's top plate. And it wold freeze. I returned it to my dealer in exchange for another new M11. That second one froze many times, could not be turned off, and began to record the images "upside down". I shipped that one to Leica Customer Care in New Jersey, USA. Leica then sent me a third new M11, which was already installed with the newest 1.6.0 firmware. I have had no problems with it thus far.

Wow. Three?!

 

 That’s bad luck. Fingers crossed that it’s third time lucky!

[Adam Bonn]

7 hours ago, lct said:

This was not necessarily a bad choice for a watch, but staying stuck in the past is not the best thing one can dream of for Leica.

Exactly. One buys a Rolex because it’s (basically) unchanged since they first started making it (give or take fancy hairspring materials, or breguet overcoils and ceramic bezels and quick adjust bracelets)

This doesn’t really work for digital cameras (except give or take M6 reissues, the MA, M9 lovers)

Rolex have QC issues too (the bezel on my subC wasn’t aligned properly for example. Fixed under warranty of course, took about 6 weeks if memory serves)

FWIW I stand by my point. A high desire product and a workhorse and seldom the same thing, marketing might disagree…

Sure you can dive with a subC, fly with the GMT, time races with a Daytona, shoot war images or capture the epic knock out punch of the heavyweight boxing match with an M11.

But it would appear most (but not all) folks doing these things for a living choose not too. That’s not a slur on Leica, just a truth about how the world generally embraces more advanced technology for most things

[Adam Bonn]

7 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I was more referring there to brand feel. If you want a more direct watch comparison, Grand Seiko make quartz watches in cases equal to Rolex. 
 

I think part of Leica’s schtick is the made in Germany, assembled by hand, milled from blocks of granite reliability thing and that’s part of why people pay NZ$15,500 for an M11 - half the price of a new Honda Jazz. 
 

Fortunately for Leica, the Japanese have not really applied themselves to Rangefinder stuff in the modern era. However if they were to do so I’m sure that they could produce something similar with Toyota or Grand Seiko reliability.  Look at the Apo Lanthar lenses for example. 
 

Leica need to protect that reliability, dependability part of the product/brand better, I think. 

I think you’re actually referring to the position that various brands occupy within your personal hierarchy 

A watch is a mechanical instrument honed over the past 300 years (ish) with most of the advances coming from manufacturing prowess 

A digital camera is a rather different proposition, no matter the brand’s cachet it’s ultimately a disposable digital product with a limited production run and lifespan

[Henners]

17 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Exactly. One buys a Rolex because it’s (basically) unchanged since they first started making it (give or take fancy hairspring materials, or breguet overcoils and ceramic bezels and quick adjust bracelets)

This doesn’t really work for digital cameras (except give or take M6 reissues, the MA, M9 lovers)

Rolex have QC issues too (the bezel on my subC wasn’t aligned properly for example. Fixed under warranty of course, took about 6 weeks if memory serves)

FWIW I stand by my point. A high desire product and a workhorse and seldom the same thing, marketing might disagree…

Sure you can dive with a subC, fly with the GMT, time races with a Daytona, shoot war images or capture the epic knock out punch of the heavyweight boxing match with an M11.

But it would appear most (but not all) folks doing these things for a living choose not too. That’s not a slur on Leica, just a truth about how the world generally embraces more advanced technology for most things

I do agree with what you're saying, and if Leica sorts out the freezing then it's a camera that can sneak in to the pack and be used professionally with confidence.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Henners

[Kiwimac]

I agree. But. 
 

Leica are without doubt in the position they are in because their film cameras were reliable and made famous by all sorts of people as a result of that. 
 

Their reputation is based on reliability and quality to a large extent. 
 

It’s not good for that reputation when people have to go through three camera bodies to get one that works, is it?

 We are already converts but Leica need new converts to keep going. Having dealers counsel against buying them (as one did when I was investigating) due to reliability issues isn’t likely to win converts. 

 

[Photoworks]

11 minutes ago, Kiwimac said:

We are already converts but Leica need new converts to keep going. Having dealers counsel against buying them (as one did when I was investigating) due to reliability issues isn’t likely to win converts. 

 

My M11 have been stable, and I used it almost every day. Could it use improvements , sure. Let's not pretend that the M11 is a terrible camera, it had issues in the beginning and most of them have been fixed. I think some people feel entitle to a stronger opinion since they paid so much.

But I have many system and I don't remember any of my other system been out of bugs. Don't get me started with Fuji LOL.

 

[Kiwimac]

I’m pleased it’s on an even keel now. 
 

My GFX kit goes to the dealer next week. I’ve not had any issues at all but it’s too heavy and just too complex for what I now realise I need. 
 

Unless I get offered a ridiculously good deal on the one remaining new 10-R in NZ, I’m going to go with the 11. 

[Guest]

If it's at all reassuring, I bought an M11 a couple of months ago and it has been perfect. Just got back from the Canary Islands after a family holiday and it was a joy to use with the 35mm Summilux.

[Henners]

It's a great camera that should only get better as they continue to update the firmware, but ideally it would have started out a little stronger. Once the freezing is a thing of the past and they sort the app out to work properly, then it'll be what most people expected in the first place.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Henners

[lct]

Took only 4 years for the M240 to fix all its bugs so all hope is not lost . 

[ELAN]

It's quite amazing that Leica doesn't take these issues more seriously.   I'm sure this thread and others like it hurt their business and bottom line.  If I was new to Leica and read all these QC issues I would be hesitant to buy a new Leica product right now.  And if I was the owner of Leica Camera I would urgently redirect company resources to identify the source of these manufacturing defects and QC failures.  And if a camera or lens isn't perfect out of the box I would exchange it on the spot and not send my new customers to stand in a 2-months repair queue.

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[lct]

I had a similar feeling in the eighties when the shutter of my M4-2 was not strong enough to resist the Leica winder. Now photos i took with it remain ma favorite and i can still use the same lenses on the M11 which is my best camera ever...

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[ELAN]

2 hours ago, MLuv said:

My guess is maybe there’s very little they can do with the current production M11?

I think most M11 issues will be resolved sooner or later. Like all previous digital M cameras, it appears that most issues are firmware related and software can always be fixed later. It’s just a shame it takes Leica so long to role out a stable firmware. 

My M11 will be one year old next week. Even though I have M10-x bodies I use the M11 the most because it’s truly a better camera**. The few freezes I get (none since FW 1.6) aren’t different than prior digital M at this stage of their lifecycle. What bothers me more are the overexposed frames I still get all the time.

** While the M11 is a better camera, for me the M10-x is a nicer experience to shoot with primarily because of the shutter experience. Still can’t get used to that double-flapping shutter and insensitive shutter button. Picking up an M10-x is bliss. Having said that, the M11 new features are wonderful to have; I now travel with my M without a charger, extra batteries, filters, memory cards and worries that I forgot something. I just grab the camera and go. Love that.