PDAF likely to replace DFD-CDAF on SL3

[sillbeers15]

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With the news on Panasonic S5 Mkll coming with PDAF, it is highly likely that the S1, S1R, S1H Mkll plus Leica Q3, SL3 & SL3S will have the AF system replaced with the same PDAF system going into the S5 Mkll that will soon be announced in the CP show.

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[helged]

2 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

With the news on Panasonic S5 Mkll coming with PDAF, it is highly likely that the S1, S1R, S1H Mkll plus Leica Q3, SL3 & SL3S will have the AF system replaced with the same PDAF system going into the S5 Mkll that will soon be announced in the CP show.

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Interesting, and something that some users - and many potential users (in my understanding) - are waiting for.

For machine-gun type of shooting, I presently use Canon R5, with an incredible af hit rate. If an L-mount system approaches R5 wrt af, I will gladly use only L-mount bodies. 

[AZN]

> Future L series cameras using PDAF?

Careful what you wish for:

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/pdaf-striping-in-the-sony-a7riv/

I have the A7RIV and haven't seen it in any of my images, but I can just imagine the neuroses which could be unleashed when new Leica users start complaining about "stripes" in their massively under/ over exposed images…

Edited December 23, 2022 by AZN

[Virob]

I guess we will have to wait and see. I find it hard to image that after spending years developing CDAF, Panasonic would  drop it completely in favour of PDAF. Not only that, but  instantly leap past the big names in PDAF who have many years of experience, to become the new AF leader. Pretty darn amazing if true.

Both Sony and Nikon use hybrid AF systems, why wouldn’t Panasonic do the same and build on what they have done with CDAF?

 

[beewee]

6 minutes ago, Virob said:

I guess we will have to wait and see. I find it hard to image that after spending years developing CDAF, Panasonic would  drop it completely in favour of PDAF. Not only that, but  instantly leap past the big names in PDAF who have many years of experience, to become the new AF leader. Pretty darn amazing if true.

Both Sony and Nikon use hybrid AF systems, why wouldn’t Panasonic do the same and build on what they have done with CDAF?

 

Most cameras with PDAF still use CDAF for fine adjustment. PDAF is only used for large adjustments and to help avoid the bouncing back and forth of the focus point that is common in DFD-CDAF that was developed by Panasonic. PDAF is basically doing the job of the DFD which is actually just fine for single shot AF but is pretty terrible for continuous AF, and downright atrocious for video.

Edited December 23, 2022 by beewee

[sillbeers15]

5 hours ago, AZN said:

> Future L series cameras using PDAF?

Careful what you wish for:

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/pdaf-striping-in-the-sony-a7riv/

I have the A7RIV and haven't seen it in any of my images, but I can just imagine the neuroses which could be unleashed when new Leica users start complaining about "stripes" in their massively under/ over exposed images…

Now that has always been a negative aspect of PDAF among the many positive. Yet to see if that problem can be resolved by Panasonic team. I suspect the Contrast Detect AF methodology is either taking up too much processing power (a fight with increasing pixel count on image sensor) or the engineers have hit a dead end on resolving fast moving subjects over back light situation which just throws the current CDAF way off.

Btw the ‘lines’ issue is not only unique to PDAF on over/under exposed images. I had similar encounter (rare) on my M240 at high ISO earlier on. But never later on M10 & M10R.

Edited December 23, 2022 by sillbeers15
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[Simone_DF]

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In case some people missed it, Panasonic admitted they are working on PDAF during a recent interview last July: 

"[Panasonic]:It is a fact that PDAF is one of the elements to improve the AF performance of LUMIX for the future.

However, PDAF alone does not improve AF performance, and factors other than PDAF are required to determine "which to focus on". With PDAF as an AF detection system in mind, we will continue to make every effort to improve the total performance of AF.

RDE: I want to make sure I understand this clearly: Yamane-san said that “it is a fact that PDAF is one of the elements to improve the AF performance of LUMIX in the future.” Does that mean that we’ll be seeing PDAF in future LUMIX products?

Panasonic:  We are positively studying PDAF for future products. We know that PDAF will enhance the total AF quality, so that’s why we’re actively studying it. We haven’t decided yet though."

Link: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2022/09/08/panasonic-japan-july-2022-interview

So there's very good chances we'll see PDAF+DFD on the next camera. 

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, beewee said:

PDAF is basically doing the job of the DFD which is actually just fine for single shot AF but is pretty terrible for continuous AF, and downright atrocious for video.

I would argue that any AF is atrocious for video, except in specific circumstances. For instance, a slow dolly move where you want to hold focus on a specific subject as the camera moves away.

Let's hope that Panasonic and Leica have solved the inherent IQ compromises caused by on-sensor PDAF in past cameras.

[sillbeers15]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

In case some people missed it, Panasonic admitted they are working on PDAF during a recent interview last July: 

"[Panasonic]:It is a fact that PDAF is one of the elements to improve the AF performance of LUMIX for the future.

However, PDAF alone does not improve AF performance, and factors other than PDAF are required to determine "which to focus on". With PDAF as an AF detection system in mind, we will continue to make every effort to improve the total performance of AF.

RDE: I want to make sure I understand this clearly: Yamane-san said that “it is a fact that PDAF is one of the elements to improve the AF performance of LUMIX in the future.” Does that mean that we’ll be seeing PDAF in future LUMIX products?

Panasonic:  We are positively studying PDAF for future products. We know that PDAF will enhance the total AF quality, so that’s why we’re actively studying it. We haven’t decided yet though."

Link: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2022/09/08/panasonic-japan-july-2022-interview

So there's very good chances we'll see PDAF+DFD on the next camera. 

All PDAF system is really a PDAF + CDAF hybrid with the earlier telling the lens which direction to focus and how much to focus which CDAF takes over on the final league to complete the focusing accurately. Panasonic’s sole CDAF employed DFD to replace PDAF employed by other makers. So it is unlikely PDAF can coexist with DFD in the new S5 AF system. However I just hope that Panasonic will have the foresight to install an oversized processor for the coming PDAF system as this is the basic ingredient for a fast and accurate AF on tracking fast moving subjects. The rest depends on firmware AI over tracking specific subjects of human, animal & objects.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

All PDAF system is really a PDAF + CDAF hybrid with the earlier telling the lens which direction to focus and how much to focus which CDAF takes over on the final league to complete the focusing accurately. Panasonic’s sole CDAF employed DFD to replace PDAF employed by other makers. So it is unlikely PDAF can coexist with DFD in the new S5 AF system. However I just hope that Panasonic will have the foresight to install an oversized processor for the coming PDAF system as this is the basic ingredient for a fast and accurate AF on tracking fast moving subjects. The rest depends on firmware AI over tracking specific subjects of human, animal & objects.

AF-C often uses only PDAF.

Edited December 23, 2022 by SrMi

[sillbeers15]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

AF-C often uses only PDAF.

Your thoughts are logical as the majority of digital camera’s auto focus calculates & recalculate 400 times per second. So for the camera to takes shots while the autofocus continues to track the fast moving subject.

[Chaemono]

PDAF banding or striping with 100% shadow boost at base ISO sucks. I wonder why the GFX files show white pixels at base ISO https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-pdaf-banding-is-fixed/ 

Edit - I just realized that the files not only included a 100% shadow boost but also a 5 stop exposure boost.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Chaemono

[Paul2660]

If you push something far enough, odds are an issue will show up. I have plenty of GFX 100 files where I have pushed the shadows as much as 3.5 stops and have yet to see the banding that Jim and others seem so concerned about. 
 

Personally I would prefer to have PDAF on a SL2 follow on body. The current AF design I have found to be very lacking in low light situations where I can’t hit a contrasting subject where I need focus. I believe It’s very accurate when it does hit.  It for sunset or sunrise shots where I want AF it can be troublesome. 
 

Paul

[sillbeers15]

19 hours ago, Chaemono said:

PDAF banding or striping with 100% shadow boost at base ISO sucks. I wonder why the GFX files show white pixels at base ISO https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/gfx-100-pdaf-banding-is-fixed/ 

Edit - I just realized that the files not only included a 100% shadow boost but also a 5 stop exposure boost.

I had encountered ’banding’ when I took a low light shot at ISO3200 with my newly received my M240 a decade ago. There was no AF on M camera to start with. Somehow I never had banding from subsequent models of M that I had own including my current M10R.

What is the cause of ‘banding’? And how is it caused only by PDAF and not CDAF?

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb sillbeers15:

I had encountered ’banding’ when I took a low light shot at ISO3200 with my newly received my M240 a decade ago. There was no AF on M camera to start with. Somehow I never had banding from subsequent models of M that I had own including my current M10R.

What is the cause of ‘banding’? And how is it caused only by PDAF and not CDAF?

For mirrorless cameras some pixels of the image sensor are used for PDAF. See here for the difference to CDAF https://technicles.com/laser-autofocus-pdaf-cdaf-dual-pixel-af-better/

Also, there seems to be trade-off between PDAF banding and PDAF striping. Manufacturers try to fix both with firmware but apparently it’s hard to do. https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/on-sensor-pdaf-misconceptions/

I’d love to know if the X2D files show PDAF banding or striping. The S3 doesn’t for obvious reasons. 

[Simone_DF]

If have to push a file 5 stops and increase the shadows to 100%, maybe you should question your shooting technique rather than PDAF.

[Chaemono]

It still shouldn’t happen at base ISO.

[SrMi]

14 hours ago, Chaemono said:

For mirrorless cameras some pixels of the image sensor are used for PDAF. See here for the difference to CDAF https://technicles.com/laser-autofocus-pdaf-cdaf-dual-pixel-af-better/

Also, there seems to be trade-off between PDAF banding and PDAF striping. Manufacturers try to fix both with firmware but apparently it’s hard to do. https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/on-sensor-pdaf-misconceptions/

I’d love to know if the X2D files show PDAF banding or striping. The S3 doesn’t for obvious reasons. 

Fuji GFX has fixed it, and X2D shows so far none.

[sometimesmaybe]

25 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Fuji GFX has fixed it

i cant say ive ever noticed any banding issues on the GFX100s

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[sillbeers15]

16 hours ago, Chaemono said:

For mirrorless cameras some pixels of the image sensor are used for PDAF. See here for the difference to CDAF https://technicles.com/laser-autofocus-pdaf-cdaf-dual-pixel-af-better/

Also, there seems to be trade-off between PDAF banding and PDAF striping. Manufacturers try to fix both with firmware but apparently it’s hard to do. https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/on-sensor-pdaf-misconceptions/

I’d love to know if the X2D files show PDAF banding or striping. The S3 doesn’t for obvious reasons. 

Thanks for the additional info.

I’m no expert in AF know how but based on what I’ve read and observe, either the capability improvements on CDAF over moving subjects tracking has hit a roadblock or the processing power required is enormous to progress. Plus the pressure from user feedback to replace DFD/CDAF is driving Panasonic’s decision to switch over to PDAF. The problems of banding & striping from PDAF looks fixable technically. I personally think Panasonic’s aim is to provide an AF system on their camera that is at least on par with Nikon, Canon & Sony moving forward if it wants to stay in business.