Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[250swb]

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1 hour ago, Mooshoepork said:

What are you even talking about? How is Leica failing to fix the problem the fault of the user?

 

Who said it was the fault of the user? You have always been against the idea it could have been something else in the camera causing the scratches, which could have been worth testing before sending the camera off for repair thinking it was the pressure plate. I worry about you levels of comprehension, you struggle to understand much. Anyway I'm sure Huss will enjoy getting your card and roses on Valentines Day.

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[Ouroboros]

6 hours ago, Huss said:

Staying calm...ohmmmm.... When I checked the film what was noticeable is the scratches were most noticeable at the end of the film, and very few at the beginning.

Which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the rewind release mechanism - it doesn't completely release when activated, so the film is dragged/scraped against whatever as it is rewound until it fully releases.

Of course, Leica did not test anything.  I mean - how could they send it back and say 'fixed'?  When they obviously never tested it to see if it was fixed.

And the test is beyond simple and takes maybe 2 minutes.  You take a fresh roll of film.  You wind it all the way through the camera until you reach the end.  You rewind the film.  You take it out of the camera and look at it.  No scratches? Fixed.  Scratches?  Not fixed!  How difficult is this? 

DO NOT RETURN A BROKEN CAMERA TO YOUR CUSTOMER IF YOU HAVE NOT FIXED IT.  CHECK YOUR FREAKIN WORK.

You've gone further with this camera than I would have done. Very disappointing service by Leica, it's a piece of junk and I'd throw it back at the dealer for exchange or a refund now. 

[williamj]

4 hours ago, Huss said:

I've written to Leica NJ - the Manager of Customer Care - who contacted me last week to let me know to expect the shipment.  I figure that is a person that has a title that seems to mean something.  

To me it’s a positive sign that Leica NJ are at least communicating with you. If I remember correctly you bought two cameras and kept the one from the UK and returned the one from the USA. Nikon are (or used to be) very particular about warranty claims and the country from which you purchased the camera. B&H still lists cameras as being from the grey market versus US origin. 

[Anbaric]

6 hours ago, Huss said:

And the test is beyond simple and takes maybe 2 minutes.  You take a fresh roll of film.  You wind it all the way through the camera until you reach the end.  You rewind the film.  You take it out of the camera and look at it.  No scratches? Fixed.  Scratches?  Not fixed!  How difficult is this?

To be fair, film is pretty expensive these days. We can hardly expect them to waste a whole roll on making sure a £4500 camera actually works.

[250swb]

28 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

 

Why do you think it’s up to the user to do Leica’s job for them 

I don't think that, and have never said that. You're the kind of person that goes around saying elections have been rigged when there is zero evidence, so just because you say something doesn't make it true.

What myself a few people were trying to get at before the likes of you parachuted in was that because things other than the pressure plate can cause scratches it is worthwhile trying to find out first rather than simply prime Leica into anticipating it's the pressure plate at fault. Give Leica a few further options, or none at all, and they may (or may not) have gone over the entire camera properly. Early on you made the fundamental mistake of assuming I have been defending Leica, far from it, only questioning the overwhelming knee jerk opinion that it has to be the pressure plate, something you and many others defended. Now where are you, Leica says they fixed the pressure plate and Huss says something's still scratching film, perhaps thinking a bit more would have worked? 

[250swb]

59 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

New camera scratches film. Why are we defending Leica on the basis of whether or not the customer did or didn’t troubleshoot the issue for them?

 

I'm not defending Leica. There is no requirement that you need to know anything at all about anything really, just send the camera back and let Leica fix it, or not fix it, and don't even come to the forum with the problem. But that isn't what happened is it, Huss came to the forum (I refer you to post #1 in this thread) and elicited opinions, presumably because he was both inquisitive and want to be empowered with information before sending his camera back. Being inquisitive about something that is of interest to you is simple human nature, it helps stop people becoming victims in life, so you're arguing for something very odd, a state of ignorance where Leica have total power over you where you'll never understand the truth about the problems your camera has and what your rights are

Edited January 29, 2023 by 250swb

[Mikep996]

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🤔   I'm wondering if Leica examined the camera and determined that the scratches are "within tolerances" based on their size (width) and how they affect the image.

IOW, maybe (I have no idea) if a scratch is not visible in an image viewed at normal viewing distance, it is considered OK?  For that matter, although I stated earlier that I never had a film camera that scratched film, maybe I never enlarged an image enough to notice any scratches.  I never actually examined a roll of film after developing to look for scratches - I wouldn't have thought of doing that.  I put the negative(s) in the enlarger and made prints.  Heck, maybe all my old negatives have scratches that I never noticed!  😱  What I'm saying is that if the scratch didn't show up in the image that I was making, I wouldn't have "seen" scratches in the negative.

Re the pics in post 347 - is the first pic an uncropped image or is it a crop from a larger image followed by two more crops from that first (cropped?) image? The first image looks like a crop to me based on the size/visibility of the grain.  I'm asking because it MIGHT be that the scratches are considered by Leica to be "within spec."  Again, I'm NOT saying that's OK but it's hard to believe that any company would accept a returned product, do nothing  - "the Sunshine Treatment" as they used to say in the car repair business - and then ship it back to the purchaser.   I ASSume they checked it and found it to be "in spec."   If it's within spec, it is not 'defective' per the manufacturer and doesn't need repair/replacement.  Whether the spec is correct/adequate is a different issue. 

Based on the location of the scratch shown in the pics on post 347, one would think it should be fairly easy to identify the cause.  IF it's the pressure plate, the flaw is close to the vertical center and should be easy to locate.  Plus the scratch would be on the entire roll. If the flaw is in the wall of the film chamber it would only scratch toward the end of the roll as the film fills the chamber.  Re that,  how full does the chamber get? I never checked such a thing but if a roll of film starts rubbing against the chamber wall, there could be a flaw there causing the scratch.  Of course, it's not the purchaser's task to find the problem but if an examination did find a flaw, it would be good to be able to point it out to Leica.  Hmm...one thing occurs to me if the film is only getting scratched on the later images - try a roll of 24 and see if there are the same scratches as the roll of 36. ALSO (you may have already done this), try running a roll of film through the camera and NOT rewinding it.  After the film is on the take-up reel, open the camera and see if you can slide/work the roll off the take-up spindle and examine it for scratches.  Yeah, I realize you would waste several good rolls of film doing this but at this point, since Leica has indicated the camera is performing properly, it seems to me that some experimentation might be worthwhile in further dealings with them.

OTOH It may be best to just give up the Jihad and ask for a refund.  Most companies nowadays seem to be inclined to give a refund rather than argue about it simply to avoid the bad publicity that might result from social media.

Certainly frustrating beyond words and I hope it quickly gets resolved to your satisfaction. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Mikep996

[Topsy]

1 hour ago, Mikep996 said:

🤔   I'm wondering if Leica examined the camera and determined that the scratches are "within tolerances" based on their size (width) and how they affect the image.

IOW, maybe (I have no idea) if a scratch is not visible in an image viewed at normal viewing distance, it is considered OK?  For that matter, although I stated earlier that I never had a film camera that scratched film, maybe I never enlarged an image enough to notice any scratches.  I never actually examined a roll of film after developing to look for scratches - I wouldn't have thought of doing that.  I put the negative(s) in the enlarger and made prints.  Heck, maybe all my old negatives have scratches that I never noticed!  😱  What I'm saying is that if the scratch didn't show up in the image that I was making, I wouldn't have "seen" scratches in the negative.

Re the pics in post 347 - is the first pic an uncropped image or is it a crop from a larger image followed by two more crops from that first (cropped?) image? The first image looks like a crop to me based on the size/visibility of the grain.  I'm asking because it MIGHT be that the scratches are considered by Leica to be "within spec."  Again, I'm NOT saying that's OK but it's hard to believe that any company would accept a returned product, do nothing  - "the Sunshine Treatment" as they used to say in the car repair business - and then ship it back to the purchaser.   I ASSume they checked it and found it to be "in spec."   If it's within spec, it is not 'defective' per the manufacturer and doesn't need repair/replacement.  Whether the spec is correct/adequate is a different issue. 

Based on the location of the scratch shown in the pics on post 347, one would think it should be fairly easy to identify the cause.  IF it's the pressure plate, the flaw is close to the vertical center and should be easy to locate.  Plus the scratch would be on the entire roll. If the flaw is in the wall of the film chamber it would only scratch toward the end of the roll as the film fills the chamber.  Re that,  how full does the chamber get? I never checked such a thing but if a roll of film starts rubbing against the chamber wall, there could be a flaw there causing the scratch.  Of course, it's not the purchaser's task to find the problem but if an examination did find a flaw, it would be good to be able to point it out to Leica.  Hmm...one thing occurs to me if the film is only getting scratched on the later images - try a roll of 24 and see if there are the same scratches as the roll of 36. ALSO (you may have already done this), try running a roll of film through the camera and NOT rewinding it.  After the film is on the take-up reel, open the camera and see if you can slide/work the roll off the take-up spindle and examine it for scratches.  Yeah, I realize you would waste several good rolls of film doing this but at this point, since Leica has indicated the camera is performing properly, it seems to me that some experimentation might be worthwhile in further dealings with them.

OTOH It may be best to just give up the Jihad and ask for a refund.  Most companies nowadays seem to be inclined to give a refund rather than argue about it simply to avoid the bad publicity that might result from social media.

Certainly frustrating beyond words and I hope it quickly gets resolved to your satisfaction. 

Excuse the crappy shot but I don't have a close up set up. this is a shot of the film chamber of my MP with a fully shot 36 exp roll before rewind, it looks like there is plenty of room inside for the film not to touch the walls IMO.

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[Mikep996]

Yep!  That pic makes it quite clear - can't be the film chamber! 🤔

...unless the M6 uses "all new parts" with a tighter film chamber!🤨

Edited January 29, 2023 by Mikep996

[Fotoklaus]

The scratch us a bit under the middle of the frame, so the problem may be on the pressure plate upside down or somewhere

between the housing and the Film.

Maybe on the side where the cartridge is put in?

 

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[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Topsy said:

Excuse the crappy shot but I don't have a close up set up. this is a shot of the film chamber of my MP with a fully shot 36 exp roll before rewind, it looks like there is plenty of room inside for the film not to touch the walls IMO.

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I believe @Hussand others report that the scratches are on the non-emulsion side of the film. The take-up spool winds the film so that the emulsion is always on the outside. So the film chamber itself seems unlikely to be where the scratch occurs.

I was waiting for my MP to arrive, or to get through the film in my M4 to check if there is somewhere between the chamber and the pressure plate for the scratch to occur. Your picture is helpful and suggests there isn't - it looks like clear daylight in the area of interest. Have you got another shot from the film canister side?🙂

Edit: oops - I've just seen @Fotoklaus's pic

 

NB Word from the wise: don't develop that film. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Steve Ricoh]

Any benefit for the diagnosis to run a roll, or part of a roll, with the back disengaged, or partly disengaged (if that’s possible)?

Film is expensive but the 2022 M6 is orders of magnitude more.

[LuckySquirrel]

18 hours ago, jonnyc said:

Yeah… This is my first Leica after saving for quite a bit. I don’t have another film camera I can use either. Hopefully my camera shop or Leica can do something about this 

I'm sorry to hear that this is happening to you as well! Hopefully you can get it rectified quickly. Have you contacted the retailer to see if they would be willing to do a swap since it was essentially DOA?

14 hours ago, Huss said:

Well how about this then, Leica returned my camera not fixed.  It scratches in the exact same places.  It's almost as if they didn't do anything.  Nah, I'll amend that, they didn't do anything.  Brand new camera, scratches film.  6 week wait, get the camera back un-repaired.  

Pathetic.

Wow, so sorry to hear about that Huss! Pretty ridiculous especially given the fact that you sent them the roll of film to validate the issues you were having. Hopefully they swap you out with a new camera so that you don't have to wait any longer.

[LuckySquirrel]

As a quick update to everyone, I was able to ship the camera back to the retailer along with a new film roll. They tested the film in a new camera and verified that there was no scratching and will be sending that one to me (very grateful that they are working with me to avoid having to go through a warranty process). They'll be shipping it out tomorrow so hopefully will have it by EOW.

They then tested the film in the camera I sent back and they saw the same scratches. They believe it is coming from the "bridge" (with the electronic contacts), so not necessarily from the pressure plate but potentially from some burrs on the backside and/or paint?

[Huss]

1 hour ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Any benefit for the diagnosis to run a roll, or part of a roll, with the back disengaged, or partly disengaged (if that’s possible)?

Film is expensive but the 2022 M6 is orders of magnitude more.

It cost me $10 to test it - 2 rolls of Kentmere.

I would assume that Leica could do that for less - bulk rolls at a corporate rate etc.

[Huss]

For arguments sake I think we can all agree on this:

 

Let’s pretend that my M6 is the only camera that scratches film.  Every single other one is ok.  Let’s go with that for a moment.

I send the camera back to Leica, with an entire uncut and undeveloped roll of film that shows the scratches, just to make it easier for them to see the issue.

I get the camera back six weeks later with an invoice that says ‘cleaned and adjusted pressure plate’ but the camera is exactly as it was before, scratching film in exactly the same places.

This shows that whatever they did, they did not check to see if that fixed the issue.  They just sent it back.  And it would have been so easy to check.

Again, let’s say my brand new 2022 M6 is the only camera that has this problem.  That still is in no way, shape or form an acceptable response from Leica and frankly insulting.

[hdmesa]

13 hours ago, Huss said:

Staying calm...ohmmmm.... When I checked the film what was noticeable is the scratches were most noticeable at the end of the film, and very few at the beginning.

Which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the rewind release mechanism - it doesn't completely release when activated, so the film is dragged/scraped against whatever as it is rewound until it fully releases.

...

Gerdammit, but I'm not surprised. They probably replaced the pressure plate and (in arrogance) did not test it with a dummy roll.

This is exactly what happened to me with my new M-A and a fresh Leica CLA M4-P. The rewind mechanism does not release well enough such that the film can rewind without scratching. I'm thinking one person at Leica must be responsible for both the rewind mechanism tolerance adjustment on both new film Ms, for the CLAs, and for the film M repairs – and they are doing it incorrectly or not catching ones that are too tight.

I was able to fix the scratching by:

• Flip the rewind lever and apply a very high amount of pressure to it in its flipped state
• Rewind your film, and you should notice it takes less effort to turn the rewind crank/knob than it did before
• Rewind slowly. If you rewind at any rate of speed other than turtle speed, the film will scratch

 

[Huss]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

Gerdammit, but I'm not surprised. They probably replaced the pressure plate and (in arrogance) did not test it with a dummy roll.

This is exactly what happened to me with my new M-A and a fresh Leica CLA M4-P. The rewind mechanism does not release well enough such that the film can rewind without scratching. I'm thinking one person at Leica must be responsible for both the rewind mechanism tolerance adjustment on both new film Ms, for the CLAs, and for the film M repairs – and they are doing it incorrectly or not catching ones that are too tight.

I was able to fix the scratching by:

• Flip the rewind lever and apply a very high amount of pressure to it in its flipped state
• Rewind your film, and you should notice it takes less effort to turn the rewind crank/knob than it did before
• Rewind slowly. If you rewind at any rate of speed other than turtle speed, the film will scratch

 

Thanks, I have a feeling it is the rewind mech too.  Because I had read about this, I tried to see if there was anything I could do differently to the rewind switch but it is solid, no play and I didn’t want to ‘lean’ on it as it is a brand new under warranty camera.

The effort at the beginning of the rewind definitely is greater than later on, it feels almost like you are working against the mechanism.

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[Steve Ricoh]

9 minutes ago, Huss said:

It cost me $10 to test it - 2 rolls of Kentmere.

I would assume that Leica could do that for less - bulk rolls at a corporate rate etc.

 

12 minutes ago, Huss said:

It cost me $10 to test it - 2 rolls of Kentmere.

I would assume that Leica could do that for less - bulk rolls at a corporate rate etc.

…thinking of potential elimination strategies, maybe $5 or $10 spent would be preferable to another camera holiday without the owner. 

[Huss]

12 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

 

…thinking of potential elimination strategies, maybe $5 or $10 spent would be preferable to another camera holiday without the owner. 

It’s not just the cost of the film.  That is tiny.  When they ship the camera 2day air via UPS, insured, that has to be at least $30 each time.  For a civilian w/o a corporate account it would cost me about $60 to do that (fully insured)

Edited January 29, 2023 by Huss