Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[250swb]

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14 minutes ago, oldwino said:

Three rolls, from two different manufacturers, run through the same camera, producing a scratch at the same exact location every time, providing more rigorous and verifiable evidence (something you've complained about the lack of in other threads)...and yet this is your reply?

I will take this as a sort of a joke statement, otherwise is is kind of sad.

Did you try another lab, or they may have cleaned the rollers over the weekend?

Look I don't know why you'd say that given I was only replying to somebody who was jumping to conclusions, I wasn't commenting on YOUR CAMERA. That's where this thread has gone down the drain, it's me, me, me, mine, mine, mine and every damned thing somebody says is taken personally because your hurting, yes I know it's terrible, but sometimes other things can scratch film and no matter how much your own camera is scratching film it's not sensible to deny the full picture.

Edited January 15, 2023 by 250swb

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[LuckySquirrel]

For all three rolls of film, I chose new in box options and they went into the camera for testing and then out for checking but never went to a lab for development (unfortunately had to sacrifice 3 rolls, but wanted to determine if this would be an issue before I started using the camera extensively). I also went a little further and with one of the rolls I kept the baseplate off and advanced the film to an area without any scratches at all, following which I put the baseplate back on (to ensure an even amount of pressure), and advanced the shutter lever a 1/4-1/3 cock. After opening the camera on these instances, I was able to narrow it down to one specific corner/screw of the pressure plate that I believe is causing the issue (even though I can't see where there is any burr, etc. under inspection).

I also did make sure that in each instance, the film was feeding correctly (watched videos on Youtube, for ex. Mr. Leica), and I ensured there was tension on the rewind knob before starting anything. It's entirely possible that I did something wrong (this is my first analog camera and it only arrived this week), but I did read the manual as well for posterity. I also completely understand healthy skepticism from others (especially towards a new member for an online forum, when the internet itself is full of trolls). Not that it matters (and by this I mean I am only saying this as a point of context), but I have a couple Engineering degrees and worked in a lab through grad school (coincidentally relating to manufacturing). I tried to ensure that I was limiting the amount of variables between each test and was looking for reproducible results (which I definitely saw, but did not take pictures of each instance since the scratch was not the easiest to photograph well).

I appreciate the replies from all here and am grateful that the dealer is going to work with me to exchange for a new camera! I'm asking if I can send a new roll of film as well for them to run it through the camera and verify that there is absolutely no scratching before shipping it to me :).

[Matlock]

42 minutes ago, LuckySquirrel said:

For all three rolls of film, I chose new in box options and they went into the camera for testing and then out for checking but never went to a lab for development (unfortunately had to sacrifice 3 rolls, but wanted to determine if this would be an issue before I started using the camera extensively). I also went a little further and with one of the rolls I kept the baseplate off and advanced the film to an area without any scratches at all, following which I put the baseplate back on (to ensure an even amount of pressure), and advanced the shutter lever a 1/4-1/3 cock. After opening the camera on these instances, I was able to narrow it down to one specific corner/screw of the pressure plate that I believe is causing the issue (even though I can't see where there is any burr, etc. under inspection).

I also did make sure that in each instance, the film was feeding correctly (watched videos on Youtube, for ex. Mr. Leica), and I ensured there was tension on the rewind knob before starting anything. It's entirely possible that I did something wrong (this is my first analog camera and it only arrived this week), but I did read the manual as well for posterity. I also completely understand healthy skepticism from others (especially towards a new member for an online forum, when the internet itself is full of trolls). Not that it matters (and by this I mean I am only saying this as a point of context), but I have a couple Engineering degrees and worked in a lab through grad school (coincidentally relating to manufacturing). I tried to ensure that I was limiting the amount of variables between each test and was looking for reproducible results (which I definitely saw, but did not take pictures of each instance since the scratch was not the easiest to photograph well).

I appreciate the replies from all here and am grateful that the dealer is going to work with me to exchange for a new camera! I'm asking if I can send a new roll of film as well for them to run it through the camera and verify that there is absolutely no scratching before shipping it to me :).

Thank you for that, this is just the sort of information that is needed to arrive at a considered opinion. I, for one, did not consider you a troll but they do exist.

[Fotoklaus]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

Or a faulty batch of film, let's not jump to conclusions.

[250swb]

10 hours ago, Mooshoepork said:

A faulty Leica is a thousand percent more likely than a faulty batch of film 🙄 

I suppose that depends on how much film you've shot during your life, use enough and you'll find nothing is impossible. But it's always hilarious when people invent statistic's and present them as truth, but you chose a nice round figure, you could have gone really wild and said 1001 percent more likely.

[Fotoklaus]

How many film- Leicas are produced in one year? Perhaps a few thousand or even just a few hundred? Some will leave the factory as M6, some as MP and some as M-A, using

mostly the same parts. (body, backplate, shutter, gears, finder...)

Perhaps there is a batch of faulty backplates (maybe some surfache grinding mistake or missed deburring) which was mounted and that´s it.

The threads depending on new cameras scratching film (maybe built in fall/winter 2022) could make that plausible.

If there where hundreds of thousands Film-Ms the error rate would be insignificant. But with those small batches a few cameras are significant.

[Aryel]

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3 hours ago, Mooshoepork said:

I run a lab and literally process at least a thousand rolls a week. 

I’ve seen more brand new broken Leicas in the last month than I’ve seen faulty film in years. 

How’s that for a statistic 

That's not a statistic, that's a biased impression. There are some faulty new cameras for sure (including the OP's one) but there are also definitely users' and labs looking for a scapegoat for their mistakes (not necessarily on purpose). Faulty film is a reality as well whether you saw it or not. I have come across four (confirmed) and I have limited experience and can only confirm B&W rolls as I send my colour film to a lab. So yes, as a statistic it is rubbish. A lab or user that scratches film is a million times more likely than a defective camera. That means that the OP was pretty unlucky! Hope they'll fix it quickly and when they do, please post some of your images

 

 

[250swb]

5 hours ago, Mooshoepork said:

I run a lab and literally process at least a thousand rolls a week. 

I’ve seen more brand new broken Leicas in the last month than I’ve seen faulty film in years. 

How’s that for a statistic 

We know there are faulty cameras, but inventing figures and dealing in absolutes gets nobody anywhere in understanding the problem because has anybody yet felt or seen a burr on the pressure plate? If there are globally 100 scratched films after being used in a brand new Leica it makes no sense at all to assume all of the scratched films are caused by the camera given that other things can scratch film. It would be as absurd as suggesting all car crashes are caused by the car. You appear to have a very slim grasp on what constitutes a statistic, so maybe better stick to the day because not all scratched films go through your lab, you haven't said how many films are scratched by your lab, and not all scratched films are processed in a lab.  

[ktmrider2]

I have owned a lot of M Leica's over the past 48 years.  The last one I purchased new was a M6TTL.  I don't recall ever having one scratch film and that includes numerous M2's, an M3, several M4's, an M4-2, an M4P, an M5 and a classic M6.  Maybe Leica has become more a piece of jewelry than a camera for a working photographer.  

[Mikep996]

Maybe Leica should just go back to what they know best - digital cameras!  🤣

 

 

 

 

[250swb]

9 hours ago, Mooshoepork said:

I’ve seen more brand new broken Leicas in the last month than I’ve seen faulty film in years. 

I think you’ll also have to explain where you’ve seen all these cameras, have they been dumped in a landfill site somewhere and you’ve inspected them? 

Edited January 16, 2023 by 250swb

[mshchem]

I've had my new MP for about a week now. I've run 3 rolls of film through. Two Kodak TMX and TMY I processed myself. One on a Jobo machine the other I processed by inversion agitation. Absolutely nothing to report. 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Mooshoepork said:

There is an obvious trend with poor QC from Leica in recent times but for some reason a few of you have a hard time admitting it.

Obvious? I see the reports here of camera and lens faults, but no evidence of a 'trend'. There's no shortage of recollections of past random and systematic faults.

The only trend I see is the growth of the internet and our ability to publicise and talk about problems.

[david_92]

I am really sorry to hear the new camera is scratching film, that is a real shame and I hope Leica fix the problem for you very quickly. 
I believe some sort of list is being compiled and I am just wanting to share that I received a new MP in late February 2022 and it doesn’t scratch film. 
So far my camera has performed very well, granted I’ve only shot around 160 rolls through it but it feels good so far. 

I am wishing any new MP or potentially future MP purchasers all the best, and hoping that anyone who has purchased a faulty one receives a solution quickly. 

[LocalHero1953]

In the end, drawing conclusions based on one person's experience is worthless. It is helpful that someone here is keeping track of faults, but that is still pretty imperfect for drawing meaningful conclusions - for all the reasons of sampling bias, lack of past data for comparison, sample size etc etc that have been discussed before.

As a student of statistics for geologists a couple of centuries back, I was taught the formula to use so that if I was counting black swans and white swans, I could calculate how many swans I needed to count to be 90% certain that black swans made up less than (e.g.) 5% of the population of swans. The days when I could do such calculations are long gone, but I doubt that the limited numbers of good and bad reports we have received so far are anything like enough to achieve 90% certainty of anything.

Of course anyone is at liberty to conclude whatever they like and tell everyone their conclusions. That doesn't take them out of the realm of guesswork, informed or otherwise.

I have not yet received a faulty new camera or lens from Leica, apart from the M240 that used to freeze in my first year of ownership, so my personal biases about Leica are nothing to do with QC or design failures. I just wish they could get their service times down to a couple of weeks at most, rather than the six months I recently experienced.

[wattsy]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The only trend I see is the growth of the internet and our ability to publicise and talk about problems.

So you keep saying, Paul. I'm not saying it isn't a fair point but the internet has been around now for a whole generation and I'm sad enough to have been a subscriber to various Leica forums (including the old LUG) for most of that time. I don't know whether there is a trend to worse QC but I don't recall quite so many problems reported by regular members (as opposed to 'here today, gone tomorrow' members) back in the day.

Edited January 17, 2023 by wattsy

[Jewl]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb wattsy:

So you keep saying, Paul. I'm not saying it isn't a fair point but the internet has been around now for a whole generation and I'm sad enough to have been a subscriber to various Leica forums (including the old LUG) for most of that time. I don't know whether there is a trend to worse QC but I don't recall quite so many problems reported by regular members (as opposed to 'here today, gone tomorrow' members) back in the day.

I also clearly see a downwards trend in service quality over the past 6 years I am with Leica! That is based on my own experience and also on what I have read here. But I do think that is also a general trend if I look left or right (to different products / industries). Service agents are pressured to reach certain KPIs which eventually negatively impact the overall customer satisfaction (was also heavily surprised a couple of weeks ago when I had a service topic with Apple). E.g., the service reps rather hustle through certain checklists without properly understanding the issue accepting a high probability the item comes back for a second time as the first attempt didn't help to solve the issue (experienced with my M11, the problem was from my perspective not too complicated, rather a typical rangefinder adjustment thing, but it needed to be sent in 2 times to fix it). 

Also looking at my new M6, I received the quality check card with the purchase signed by a Leica employee. But what did the person actually do? The M6 got a loose bayonet and a faulty shutter. 2 not so unobvious issues that should have been identified even during a standard quality check! It really feels as if their is not much passion left over that is really necessary to dedicate to these expensive products and demanding customer base (which is reasonable if you look at the price!).

And sorry if I keep repeating myself over different threads regarding the new M6, but obviously a lot of users have similar issues with the product or Leica herself. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Jewl

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

As a student of statistics for geologists a couple of centuries back, I was taught the formula to use so that if I was counting black swans and white swans, I could calculate how many swans I needed to count to be 90% certain that black swans made up less than (e.g.) 5% of the population of swans.

Especially when the observations come from a 'just saw a black swan' thread on a birdwatching forum.

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[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, wattsy said:

So you keep saying, Paul. I'm not saying it isn't a fair point but the internet has been around now for a whole generation and I'm sad enough to have been a subscriber to various Leica forums (including the old LUG) for most of that time. I don't know whether there is a trend to worse QC but I don't recall quite so many problems reported by regular members (as opposed to 'here today, gone tomorrow' members) back in the day.

I don't discount issues reported here, whether from regular or new members. You have been on the forum longer than me, but I've been here since 2011, and I recall similar scale furores over the M240 freezing, and I'd be surprised if there weren't more over M8 IR issues - before my time, but I experienced similar problems with the M9 with some complexions. (I can just imagine the posts that would result if it happened now).

It's just my view (until we get better data), but the film scratching issue seems to be fairly small (though still important, and shouldn't happen). Others have mentioned film scratching in previous M models; I don't recall them - before my time. Among other QA/QC failures that appeared to be widespread, the M10 had strap lug failure (no thread-lock) and ISO dial failure. Alongside the latest lens aperture failures, we have the widespread Apo-Summicron-M 50mm flare issue (lack of internal barrel coating), and multiple AF motor failures of the S lenses (under-specced for more powerful motors) - these appear to be QC failings.

On the other hand, the M11 freezing is comparable to the M240 one and is not a QC issue but perhaps a design or firmware issue - it has lasted longer before a solution though. I leave out M9 sensor corrosion, as it was more long term.

[LocalHero1953]

28 minutes ago, Jewl said:

I also clearly see a downwards trend in service quality over the past 6 years I am with Leica!

As I hope was clear from my post(s), I have also experienced a deterioration in service from Wetzlar, though I have found Leica Mayfair to be regularly helpful. My comments were directed at product QA/QC. I have no idea if the deterioration in service is attributable to a change in corporate culture, lack of investment or the difficulty in finding and training suitable staff.

Edited January 17, 2023 by LocalHero1953