Buying into the Digital M System

[MikeMyers]

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On 12/5/2022 at 1:55 PM, JuveFC said:

I currently have the budget to pick up an M10 but was wondering if a M240 or M262 would suffice? I don't need video. 24MP is fine for me. For low light I would use the Q2. I mostly want to use the M digital body for shooting outdoors during the day and also to be able to justify owning expensive Leica glass without only using them with the film cameras. Connecting to Leica Fotos would be great. 

From the original post in this thread, an M10 would likely be a perfect choice.  I struggled with "what to buy" for years, and bought the M10 from B&H at a reasonable price.  Since then, I've been thinking several times about trading it in against the latest M, but why give up something that is already perfect for me.  I almost wanted an M10-P, then an M10-R, and finally the M11, then decided the M10 was all I needed/wanted. And while thinking about Leica glass sounded exciting, I decided Voigtlander glass was just as good a choice for me.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by MikeMyers

[BruceRH]

I had a M-P (Typ240) and while I liked the images, I did not like how fat it was and as others said, ISO performance was not what I wanted. I sold it and then went back and forth between a M10-P, M10-R or the M11. After lots of reading I went with the M10-R and couldn't be happier. I do think the M10-P is also a great choice. Enjoy!

[Kiwimac]

I'm also looking to get a newer generation M. I had an M6 and M7 then sold them (and took a bath on glass that would now be worth a fortune, sadly) because at that moment digital was getting going and Leica were not really being obvious that there would ever be a digital M.

I might add that the lenses I sold included an f1 Noctilux 50mm that I bought new from a dealer in Singapore for $2,500 in 2004!

I had an M240 some time later but that never really satisfied me. The M10 and M11 feel that they would.

Oddly the M10-R costs more in NZ than the M11 and there is one only left.

My question is this: would you buy a brand new M10-R if there was a discount (no idea what or if there would be so assume 10%) or an M11 at full price?

Edited December 14, 2022 by Kiwimac
Spelling.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

My question is this: would you buy a brand new M10-R if there was a discount (no idea what or if there would be so assume 10%) or an M11 at full price?

M11 at any price for its BSI sensor, faster EVF and internal memory mainly. I have no experience with the M10-R though.

[Kiwimac]

Usually I’d buy the latest in a digital product. Who’d buy a three year old laptop new, for example?

 However I think the ‘gap’ between M10-R and M11 would make little real difference to me - other than convenience and so on from the battery life etc. 

I’m still on the fence as to whether a more sensible choice would be an SL2 or SL2s body shot with M lenses but that does lack the romantic aspects of the M that those of us who’ve used them recognise so well!

I even briefly considered whether a Q2 could work but 28mm isn’t really my thing. If it was 50mm native with 75/100 crops then it might. 
 

Then I flirted with the idea of an M10M but I’m not sure I could live without the colour as a permanent state of being. Part of me is still feeling a bit Larry Towell like about that I must admit!

[Kiwimac]

On 12/17/2022 at 3:02 PM, Musky said:

I would pick a tried and true M10R. I just want to take pictures and not deal with problems. The 40MP sensor takes beautiful photos.

See the M11 thread 😁

I am considering doing exactly that!

[shanefking]

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On 12/8/2022 at 4:13 PM, JuveFC said:

Difference is $2300 USD and i also got an extra battery as well as leica half case and thumbgrip. That difference in price would get me a great used lens. 

My main kit is a M10 and a 50 summilux asph, I think one could be had for around 2300 or so.  And of course, if you decide to sell eventually the lens will hold value better than the body.
 

While newer cameras have improved sensors or metering, I’m not sure it would make a notable improvement in my work.  

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[muju79]

My 1.5 cents: Digital M bodies before the M10 are plain ugly...I mean no offense whatsoever to people liking them and using them of course, it is just my opinion. Like you, I only have film M bodies (M2, M3, M4), and I'd never be able to get myself to use one of those fat ugly ducks. The M10 and later models are much better in that regard. I feel like the best value would be a well taken care of M10 or M10-P body, if you can find one. Unless you're making huge prints, 24MP is more than anyone needs in all practical aspects. I feel the 40MP of the M10-R is already overkill.

[Kiwimac]

OK.

I have made some various enquiries and as is often the case, muddied the water rather than clarified it.

There are some options available to re-enter Leica as follows (numbers are NZ$ but it does not matter for this purpose)

1. I can get the one brand new M-10 standard model available new in NZ for $9,999
2. I can get the one brand new M10-R available in NZ for $13,800
3. I could get an SL2-S for $9500
4. I could get an SL2 for $12,500

I have no Leica glass. I could probably get just one lens with all of those options except (1).

For comparison purposes so you can evaluate value, a new M11 is $15,500. All prices include applicable taxes.

Any thoughts welcome.

[Kiwimac]

I know there have been - as there usually are - issues with the M11. I seem to recall they were with pretty much all of the M iterations to some degree. 
 

I was told recently firmware fixed the most significant issues but not sure if that’s true. 
 

 

[Kiwimac]

I know there have been - as there usually are - issues with the M11. I seem to recall they were with pretty much all of the M iterations to some degree. 
 

I was told recently firmware fixed the most significant issues but not sure if that’s true. 
 

 

[JuveFC]

20 hours ago, Artin said:

My opinion I would sell the Q2 and just jump into the M11 ..... I have had all the Digital Ms and the M11 is just in another league... I am not just talking IQ .... Although the 10R had very nice IQ ... but the 11 has just way to Manny other convenient upgrades.... 

That's the next step but i'm planning to wait for the M11s to sort their issues out + come down in price. 

[Adam Bonn]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

there are only 2 issues I found on the M10R   B. its the Base Iso which is somewhere around the 160 Iso

The M10 has a base ISO of.. who knows, maybe it's 160 it sure ain't 100.. and 200 is the closest value that's user selectable

However, the M10R has a true base ISO of 100, and according to Jono Slack's M11 review

Quote

The dynamic range seems to be very good (but I don't really have a way of measuring it); it is at least as good as the M10-R and probably a little better, although I found it very slightly easier to blow highlights than with the M10-R  (the M11 is still much better than the  24mp M1o).

(link)

 

[jakontil]

the m10r base iso 

40 minutes ago, Artin said:

Sorry guys had the M10R for a year Best ISO was at the setting of 200 according to my experience .... I am not Knocking he M10R it is a great camera I am basing my evaluation based on current street value. an M10R at 70% of the M11 cost is a good deal to me anything more I don't see the Value.. 

this is new.. base iso 200, bold claim but well it's your experince 

[Adam Bonn]

22 minutes ago, jakontil said:

the m10r base iso 

this is new.. base iso 200, bold claim but well it's your experince 

He said best setting for him. Maybe ISO 128 is better for him on the M11?

The M10R has a base ISO of 100. (Like what? 1/3 of a stop over the M11) And Jono said that the M10R was easier not to clip highlights. Most new Leicas have teething issues, the 240 springs to mind… which the M11 reminds me of, namely lots of new features and the these USPs are not rangefinder related (OMMV) but that doesn’t make them bad. This is Leica’s new direction and sooner or later owning an M will mean off sensor metering, no base plate etc etc

I bought the M10R on the used market, I already had all the M10 accessories (grip, thumb grip, evf, case, spare batt) and where I shop the secondhand M11 is £2000+* more than the secondhand M10R in similar condition, so for me it was a no brainer

I haven’t noted my 10R shots per battery (I know it should be run time) but on the M10 I regularly got over 500. No drama to me. OMWV

 

*3800 NZ Dollars / 3200 Canadian Dollars / 2400 US / 2200 Euros (approx)

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Adam Bonn

[Kiwimac]

I’d be astonished if even one M11 in NZ had ever been available second hand!

 

 At present the two main dealers in the country have an M10-P, an M240 and an M240M available plus several film bodies between them. That’s it!

[jakontil]

6 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

He said best setting for him. Maybe ISO 128 is better for him on the M11?

The M10R has a base ISO of 100. (Like what? 1/3 of a stop over the M11) And Jono said that the M10R was easier not to clip highlights. Most new Leicas have teething issues, the 240 springs to mind… which the M11 reminds me of, namely lots of new features and the these USPs are not rangefinder related (OMMV) but that doesn’t make them bad. This is Leica’s new direction and sooner or later owning an M will mean off sensor metering, no base plate etc etc

I bought the M10R on the used market, I already had all the M10 accessories (grip, thumb grip, evf, case, spare batt) and where I shop the secondhand M11 is £2000+* more than the secondhand M10R in similar condition, so for me it was a no brainer

I haven’t noted my 10R shots per battery (I know it should be run time) but on the M10 I regularly got over 500. No drama to me. OMWV

 

*3800 NZ Dollars / 3200 Canadian Dollars / 2400 US / 2200 Euros (approx)

 

Or may be because dual gain sensor with 2 native iso base i dont know

but yeah may b i was wrong, i read reid’s review comparing native iso m10r, monochrome and m11 , i believe i know what i saw 

 

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, jakontil said:

Or may be because dual gain sensor with 2 native iso base i dont know

but yeah may b i was wrong, i read reid’s review comparing native iso m10r, monochrome and m11 , i believe i know what i saw 

 

Dual gain starts at 400 on the 10R. Even dual gain sensors have more DR at their lower base ISO 

You can spot pull ISOs when the third stops are missing in the menu.. eg the M10/240 options go straight from 100 to 200. The M9 80 straight to 160. The M10R/M11 start from 100/64 and progress in 1/3 stops from there on

The pitfall of testing ISO values is that there’s various ISO standards (gotta love standards right? So many to chose from) and on top of that cameras embed native tone curves and RAW apps apply hidden tone curves so it gets complicated.

For example DXO list the M10 ISO as 105 when the ISO dial is set to 200, for the M11 DXO says 58 when the dial says 64 (and 183 when the M11 says 200). Assuming the DXO test is consistent this implies that Leica aren’t using the same metric to assign ISO value to all their cameras… then someone else (Reid, who ever) can make a different test and get different values… it’s more relative per camera really… halving/doubling the ISO should have the desired effect, doesn’t mean that (say) ISO 400 is the same on all the cameras

If I was offered an secondhand M11 for exactly the same price as I paid for my secondhand M10R maybe I’d have taken it. But where I shop the price difference was considerable. One could argue that the usability improvements to the 11 make it worth it, but the money still has to be physically there which it wasn’t.

The older cameras never get worse, the new ones just get better. The M11 is quite ambitious for an M (less so it was a Sony!!) so not surprising there were some bugs to iron out, then factor in s/he who has a duff camera posts the loudest and quickly the M11 gets a rep for being buggy… I’m sure that all the FM updates have helped a lot… whatever, by the time I have an M11 it’ll purr like a kitten (advantage to buying quality used long after the release date) in the meantime my M10R is a nice upgrade over my M10 (less so if I’d had the 10p I think)

Edited December 24, 2022 by Adam Bonn

[Kiwimac]

I have no idea about numbers but I suspect that the number of M cameras sold in NZ is quite tiny.

I was speaking to one of the major dealers (in fact probably THE major dealer) the other day about Leica reliability with regard to the M11 and he said - and I quote - "We have not had one back yet". Conversely another dealer told me that one of his customers had one that had spent more time at Leica being repaired than it had in his hands and he was selling up and moving to Fujifilm GFX in disgust!

As I say - small sample. I mentioned that Leica had more or less issued a blanket "swap it out" instruction as regards bricked cameras and he said it was highly unlikely that that would be the response in NZ because Leica NZ just would not have the stock levels etc - the camera would have to go back to Germany if there was that kind of issue. One of the disadvantages to being at the end of the world I guess.

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[jakontil]

31 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Dual gain starts at 400 on the 10R. Even dual gain sensors have more DR at their lower base ISO 

You can spot pull ISOs when the third stops are missing in the menu.. eg the M10/240 options go straight from 100 to 200. The M9 80 straight to 160. The M10R/M11 start from 100/64 and progress in 1/3 stops from there on

The pitfall of testing ISO values is that there’s various ISO standards (gotta love standards right? So many to chose from) and on top of that cameras embed native tone curves and RAW apps apply hidden tone curves so it gets complicated.

For example DXO list the M10 ISO as 105 when the ISO dial is set to 200, for the M11 DXO says 58 when the dial says 64 (and 183 when the M11 says 200). Assuming the DXO test is consistent this implies that Leica aren’t using the same metric to assign ISO value to all their cameras… then someone else (Reid, who ever) can make a different test and get different values… it’s more relative per camera really… halving/doubling the ISO should have the desired effect, doesn’t mean that (say) ISO 400 is the same on all the cameras

If I was offered an secondhand M11 for exactly the same price as I paid for my secondhand M10R maybe I’d have taken it. But where I shop the price difference was considerable. One could argue that the usability improvements to the 11 make it worth it, but the money still has to be physically there which it wasn’t.

The older cameras never get worse, the new ones just get better. The M11 is quite ambitious for an M (less so it was a Sony!!) so not surprising there were some bugs to iron out, then factor in s/he who has a duff camera posts the loudest and quickly the M11 gets a rep for being buggy… I’m sure that all the FM updates have helped a lot… whatever, by the time I have an M11 it’ll purr like a kitten (advantage to buying quality used long after the release date) in the meantime my M10R is a nice upgrade over my M10 (less so if I’d had the 10p I think)

thanks!

right now the m11 sure is a camera to get when it works, i keep my m10r solely due to black paint which im obsessed for, anfd as a matter of facts, that's the reason  i jumped ship from my m10p safari, my comfort zone, however, though m11 viso stop working, im still keeping it since i love its battery and usb c port just make it handy, weird, i miss the baseplate still but yeah take it or leave it

Edited December 24, 2022 by jakontil