Precision Focusing with M10 (and other Leica M cameras)

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Sometimes I wonder if you’re just trolling us.

Jeff

[fenykepesz]

for many months actually...

[fenykepesz]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Jeff S:

Sometimes I wonder if you’re just trolling us.

Jeff

actually already for several months...

[MikeMyers]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Sometimes I wonder if you’re just trolling us.

Jeff

Nope, I write what I think.  Whether or not that fits what others think, I have no idea.  What prompted this thread is what I explained when I first started the thread, the video I had just watched on how important it is to focus on the eye.  I'm pretty sure I left the link, but I have no idea if anyone else here has watched it.  I'm mostly repeating what I learned there, trying to figure out how to do it better myself.

[Jeff S]

Wayne’s World Mike Myers.  Coincidence?  I don’t think so. Former forum name(s)?
 

Jeff

[lct]

Or a true Nikonian interested in rangefinders

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[MikeMyers]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

22 minutes ago, lct said:

Or a true Nikonian interested in rangefinders

The Olympus, the Nikons, and the Leica's - they are all tools.  I sold my old Olympus E-10, I still have my Nikon F4, and also my old film Leica cameras, but nowadays I have a Nikon Df (that I rarely use), a Nikon D780, and my M8.2 and M10.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses.  So does my M3, that Don at DAG Cameras restored to better-than-new condition, and my beat-up M2 awaiting a trip to DAG.  From when the Nikon F first was introduced, my favorites were Nikon.  I've still got my Nikon SP, but it needs a C&L.  I guess there is some truth in what you wrote - using my Nikons is effortless compared to using my Leica's.  Blame/thank that on all the electronics and automation.  Regardless, almost all my recent photography have been taken with the M8.2 or the M10.  That is part of the reason I started this thread - to be able to focus my Leica as quickly, and precisely as my D780.

.....and whether it looks like "trolling" or not, I did get a lot of useful ideas on how to focus more precisely, from all the reading I did as a result of this thread, so thanks to all of you who helped.

Edited October 19, 2022 by MikeMyers

[Erato]

7 hours ago, evikne said:

I'm not quite sure how to interpret the cat's expression, but I guess he’s happy? 😄

A phoney transcription: damn! can you speed up your stupid focusing process? I can't hold long enough until you're 100% accurate!

The real time transcription: common, my dear slave(the boy holding a pack of cat food indeed), just feed me the ciao in your hands, don't play around with me!

🤩🎯🐈😱, 😂🤣🖖🏻🥳

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited October 20, 2022 by Erato
emoji added

[MikeMyers]

Close. but no cigar.....

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[MikeMyers]

Still no cigar, but maybe closer....

Both photos Leica M8.2 with my new (used) 28mm f/2 II Ultron Vintage Line Aspherical

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited October 20, 2022 by MikeMyers

[evikne]

11 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Close. but no cigar.....

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Looks like you have a really challenging subject though. 😄

[charlesphoto99]

One thing to think about with M's and focusing, is that it is a dance (or I prefer sparring as I practice karate) with/against your partner (your subject). So in @MikeMyers example above, it's not just about moving the focus on the lens when the dog jumps up, but also about moving your body back and keeping the lens focus where it was for the previous shot. The M, if you watch classic street M photographers at work, is about being very fluid and physical - you'll notice they rarely stop moving, which includes the focusing fingers and body. SLRs are more about being in a rigid or semi-stationary position and letting the camera/lens/viewfinder do a lot of the work and pretty much all of the imagining of the final image for you. For me, the M is more about perfecting the imperfect image, the one you see but don't actually see in its final state through the OVF at the time of its making. Hope that makes some sense. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by charlesphoto99

[Chimichurri]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:20 PM, MikeMyers said:

While searching for something completely unrelated, I discovered "Leica Camera Australia" last night, with a series of videos showing how to get the most out of the Leica, and for me, the M-series rangefinder Leica cameras.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT-T92nKsXk

That got me to wondering - I often shoot "people photos", and according to this video, it is mandatory to get the pupil of the eye perfectly sharp.  What I'm puzzled about, is while I can take my Nikon D780, and place a single red dot over an eye, knowing that eye will be in precise focus, I've never felt that confident when using my Leica cameras with the rangefinder.  To be honest, I never tried to focus on an eye - focusing on the face seemed good enough, but I think I've learned something new.  I know I can attach my Visoflex 2 and accomplish this, but I've been trying to use my M10 and my M8.2 the way I think they were designed to be used, with the built-in rangefinder.  

I guess from now on, I need to try to be much more precise with my rangefinder, even if it takes a lot more time.  Until now, I thought capturing an image at the perfect moment was most important, with me concentrating on the person's expression, not the eye.  This is with 24 megapixels - with more powerful sensors, I think this is even more important.

Any thoughts?

(Check out all the other videos at this site - lots of good information, presented differently than what I'm used to reading.)

I do it all the time. I don’t have magnifiers or an EVF. I shoot 50&28. M10R.  I can focus on the eye and zoom in all the way to a focused eye. When I tested the 50 Planar that’s the first thing I did and I could see the detail on my wife’s contact lenses. 

There are a couple of things to keep in mind. 

1) Keep your windows and the viewfinder clean. For this I use a tiny lenspen. The one with the very small carbon tip to clean viewfinders. You can use that for both windows in the front quickly. It’s hard to get your finger in the viewfinder but a lens cloth works fine too, just fold it for inside the viewfinder. 
 

2) Don’t shoot at f1.4 or lower. You can but this will require many shots to get it perfectly in focus. You don’t need lower than f2. That’s why I like summicron lenses. They’re very versatile. If you really need lower than f2 then I suggest using the LCD or top mounted EVF. Or if you really absolutely need focusing on the pupils with 100% accuracy 100% of the time and you do this a lot (and you shoot at huge apertures all the time) then consider switching to the SL. Rangefinders we’re not really meant for this  they’re more for photography that represents real life and that usually at small apertures where everything is sharp and you can’t hide anything  

for shallow depth of field shots then that’s more artistic and requires you to take your time, usually with subjects that aren’t moving a lot. 

The shallower the more difficult to do through the rangefinder because if you get close for a portrait at f1.4, the depth of focus is so slim that when you recompose the pupil is already out of focus because you moved the camera.

f2.8 never fails for me.  Honestly portraits look better at f2.8. 
 

This was f2. As you can see I’m zoomed in as far as it can go. So I wasn’t too close to her  

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

for your dog I would focus on the contrast between the corner of his eye and his fur. They’re black and white. When that line is in focus then I would take the picture. 

I also noticed your M8 has a sensor issue. There are TWO vertical lines running from top to bottom. Hopefully it’s just sensor pixel mapping. If not it needs a new sensor. I had that with my first used M10P and they said they couldn’t map it out. sensor issue. Sold it. Bought a new one.

Other things that move fast are difficult, like a birds for instance. For that keep the shutter speed at 1/1000 and the aperture at f8 or f11 and take your time. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Chimichurri

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, Chimichurri said:

I also noticed your M8 has a sensor issue. There are TWO vertical lines running from top to bottom. Hopefully it’s just sensor pixel mapping. If not it needs a new sensor.

Yep, I know.  Actually there are now three white lines.  I've been in contact with Leica Tech Support, and will be sending the camera in.  Hopefully sensor mapping will resolve it.  Plan "B" is the "PixelFixer" download.  I've already downloaded it, but haven't yet tried it.  

http://www.pixelfixer.org

Plan "C" is to ignore the white lines, and use the camera anyway.  Apparently new sensors are no longer available, and if they were, the installation cost is more than the value of the camera.  If I was smarter, I'd put the camera away, and go back to my M10 which is what I ought to be spending my time with.  That's Plan "D", which is what I expect to be doing in the next few days.  

Oh, and I shouldn't totally blame the Leica RF focus for my issues - I had cataracts replaced in both eyes, and now have "progressive" glasses.  To make the image in my viewfinder as sharp as possible, I need to be looking through one specific area on my eyeglasses.  However. the more I work at this, the better things get.  Thanks!

[Chimichurri]

43 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Yep, I know.  Actually there are now three white lines.  I've been in contact with Leica Tech Support, and will be sending the camera in.  Hopefully sensor mapping will resolve it.  Plan "B" is the "PixelFixer" download.  I've already downloaded it, but haven't yet tried it.  

http://www.pixelfixer.org

Plan "C" is to ignore the white lines, and use the camera anyway.  Apparently new sensors are no longer available, and if they were, the installation cost is more than the value of the camera.  If I was smarter, I'd put the camera away, and go back to my M10 which is what I ought to be spending my time with.  That's Plan "D", which is what I expect to be doing in the next few days.  

Oh, and I shouldn't totally blame the Leica RF focus for my issues - I had cataracts replaced in both eyes, and now have "progressive" glasses.  To make the image in my viewfinder as sharp as possible, I need to be looking through one specific area on my eyeglasses.  However. the more I work at this, the better things get.  Thanks!

 

leica should be able to know if it’s a pixel mapping issue if you contact them. They’ll give you a link to upload the raw file.

if they can fix it they send you a custom firmware and you can do it yourself. If not then you’re SOL. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Chimichurri

[MikeMyers]

I did contact them, and had a long discussion.  They are pretty sure it is a pixel matching issue.  They want me to send them the camera with a memory card with images that show the white lines.  I'm not going to argue with them.  As soon as I'm able to, I'll send them the camera.  I also contacted my local Leica store, who told me they would box it up with the appropriate forms for shipping.  

I recently sold my Nikon D750 cameras, and bought a Nikon D780.  Wonderful camera, in every way.  When I was shooting for $$$ I used my Nikons.  When I'm shooting for myself, I've mostly been using Leica.  As to the new line of "mirrorless" stuff, I want nothing to do with any of them.  I prefer DSLR.  And I prefer my M cameras the most, regardless of how challenging I find them to be.  With the Leica, the end result is MINE.  With the others, the camera usually does all the work - all I do is press the shutter release.  Probably sounds pretty silly, but my first real camera was a Contax II rangefinder, and I grew up with it, and other similar cameras.

[MikeMyers]

It has nothing to do with this discussion, but I wrote you about my Nikon D780.  By comparison, the M10 and Leica are kindergarten-simple.  

I wanted to learn more about my D780.  The YouTube video that explains how to use it is over 2 1/2 hours long, and that is the "basic" video.  The full video is many times longer, and is quite expensive to buy.  I'm almost half-way through the basic video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR4CE162H8w&t=5057s) and my head was spinning.  I don't know how to deal with it, so I'm back to looking up how to use things only when I need to do something and I can't figure out how to do it.

By comparison, the Leica M10 is effortless, and for the times I didn't understand something, I found plenty of on-line (and video) information to explain it.  The things I struggle with on the M10 are how to accomplish doing things that I've read how to do.  I know I'll (eventually) get there, because I always do (often with help from people here).  

Last thought - I have such lovely memories of growing up with my M2....    shutter, aperture, ASA film speed, and focus.  Learning photography took a lot of work.  Learning the M2 was so simple and easy.  That was the easy part - then I had to do my part, timing, composition, and all the rest.  I expect I will learn everything I need to know about my Leica.  I don't think I will ever learn what's in that video link I just posted....   it's been two weeks since I last continued from where I left off.  I'm too stubborn for my own good, but while I enjoy reading how to do better with my Leica, that video sounds about as exciting as learning how to build my own computer, something else I will never do again.

[MikeMyers]

By posting this response, it will probably make me seem even dumber than some of you already think I am.  On the other hand, it may be something that will help others, so here goes...

First, I spent half an hour or so reading and trying to understand this long article, and it gave me the clues to eventually figure out my problem:  

https://www.leicalensesfornormalpeople.com/2021/11/05/the-ultimate-guide-to-vision-issues-glasses-contact-lenses-and-diopters-for-leica-and-other-rangefinder-photographers/

I then spent 20 minutes or so trying to figure out what has been giving me so much trouble using the rangefinder on my M10, specifically for focusing on people's eyes.

Then it slowly hit me, like a ton of bricks.  It was all so obvious, but I didn't recognize it before.

Situation - I have had cataract surgery in both eyes, meaning my eyes can not adjust their focus.  My right (dominant) eye sees best at distance, and for both eyes, closer objects are less and less in focus.  This means I need eyeglasses, and I decided to get Progressive lenses.  That's like a bi-focal, or try-focal, but since the focus blends from "infinity" at the top of the lens, to very close reading at the bottom of the lens, I subconsciously adjust the focus by moving my head so I am seeing through the appropriate part of the lens - top, for distance, and bottom, for close-up.  If you guys are as smart as I think you are, you already know what I'm going to write next. 

With my cameras I bring my eye up to the eyepiece, just like I have all my life, and that's where the camera stays.  But when I'm trying to focus on someone's eyes, (they are likely quite close to me), their eyes appear blurry UNLESS I RAISE MY HEAD SO I AM LOOKING THROUGH THE APPROPRIATE PART OF MY EYEGLASSES, LOWER DOWN).  

So, how did I realize this?  

1. After reading that article I linked to, while wearing my glasses, I stared at my iMac computer, with the nice black Apple logo near the bottom.  
2. I held up my M10 and looked through the viewfinder staring at the computer, and then glanced at the Apple logo (which appeared blurry)
3. I tilted my head back, so I was looking through the lower part of my progressive lenses, and the Apple logo became sharp and clear.
4. Bingo!  Everything became clear to me.

So, all I need to do to keep that Apple logo (or someone's eyes) sharp, is to tilt my head back so I'm looking through the appropriate part of my progressive glasses.

 

To anyone who felt offended - no, I wasn't trolling anyone, I was simply oblivious to something that now seems obvious.  No wonder what I was trying to say didn't make sense to others.  Only people with progressive glasses, or bi-focals, or tri-focals would experience what I've just written.  Now, it's obvious to me.  An hour ago it was just a problem with no obvious solution.  Problem solved!

Edited October 22, 2022 by MikeMyers

[Siriusone59]

Thanks for posting that Mike.  I had been doing the same thing, tilting my head back to look through the lower part of my progressive bi-focals, something one does without thinking about why they do it.  It became obvious to me when first using a visoflex and noticing how far I had to turn the diopter adjustment to make things clear.  Sometime in the near future I'll need to determine a diopter correction lens for my viewfinder.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[fenykepesz]

bonjour, dear MikeMyers,

i have to apologize to you for being a bit rude to you some weeks ago, regarding trolling and such.

ultimately, thanks to your discussion here - about focus, sharpness and eye glasses and more - i began finally to think again and look into my own focusing problems i have had for the last 2-3y or so with my M10D.   and tata, finally got this issue solved i am more than happy to report !  so, in sum, i hope i will soon catch again my daughter's eye lashes from the pupil i focus on, mentally, optically, artistically...

wish you a pleasant weekend and happy snapping, bye, pisti