Precision Focusing with M10 (and other Leica M cameras)

[MikeMyers]

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13 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

how to optimize the focusing process on a digital M camera ?

I'm in no position to even suggest an answer, but I've accepted this as something Leica doesn't yet know how to do in a practical and reliable manner.  That being the case, what I was originally asking about was just what you wrote - to optimize MY focusing process on a digital M camera, and preferably on all the rangefinder Leica cameras that have ever been made.  Step #1 is easy - adjust my eyeglasses, or the diopter that can go on the camera, until the rangefinder area is as sharp as possible, along with cleaning all the "windows" on the camera to remove dirt and/or grease (fingerprints).  

Since the rangefinder operates on a diagonal, not simply right-left, I've wondered if I would improve my accuracy if I were to tilt the camera so the rangefinder was only moving horizontally until I found the perfect setting.  Maybe there are other "tricks" that would help.  99.999% of the time, since I'm mostly concentrating on composition, I just hold the camera normally, adjust the rangefinder, and stop.  I don't go back and forth, and I suspect that would decrease focusing accuracy.  I don't own any f/0.0009 lenses, nothing faster than f/1.4 and were I to buy one of these ultra-fast lenses, I'm thinking the decreased depth-of-field would make the situation worse for me, not better.  I'd like to know how to do this better, but I'm not sure if I'm capable of doing so.

[Jeff S]

Jeff

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[lct]

1 hour ago, fenykepesz said:

may i return to the original question which is how to optimize the focusing process on a digital M camera ?

there are variables that are not fully under our control, and those are human errors (inattention, eye fatigue etc) and camera and/or lens misalignment that all can occur at any time.  why can we not convince RD at Leica to implement a 'hybrid' VF, which is a regular OVF/RF with the areas of maximal sharpness projected into (upon button press) in form of red laser spots/pixels ?  i know this sounds like a broken record - but is this such a faux-pas for the M community ?  i never got to hear any feedback since i started to whine about this for the last two years or so.

i hate the idea of using that Visoflex thingy on top of my M10-D, and that's not for aesthetic but for practical reasons : i don't want to interrupt my workflow by switching back and forth between OVF and EVF.  i want to keep my eye on the object, or let's call it 'sujet', my by-the-second ever-changing piece of art : that's where i want my mental (and manual) focus to stay on !  in that sense i feel this HVF (H for hybrid) would be least reactionary and most compatible with the M philosophy, which is to take (sharp) pictures with the least amount of technical distraction possible.

what do folks think here ?  or should i just shut up about this sci-fi cockpit pilot helmet red-spots idea ?

« A so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder and a medium quality EVF panel » Leica used to say. Thanks no thanks but YMMV .

[MikeMyers]

Jeff S, as a reply to your question, learning how to focus on a Leica M, can I suggest the following.

Red Dot Forum has uploaded two M10 videos to YouTube, which are full of suggestions on how to focus the camera.  There is "Part 1" and then "Part 2".

Here's a link to Part 2:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R80mtgW9pag

Be sure to watch both.

I never learned to do it the way they show, but I've already spent a good bit of time practicing.  I could explain more here, but it's better if you hear it right from them, and being YouTube, they also show you what to do.  Actually, with all the questions and answers, there's a LOT of good information in these videos.

Things I never learned (yet) and need to work on:

a) if I move closer to my subject, which way do I turn the focus adjuster?

b) when I hold the camera and I'm about to take some photos, what should I do with the focus adjustment, and the "tab" that controls it?

I'm a slow learner - I've watched both videos several times, and practiced what they suggest.

[fenykepesz]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb lct:

« A so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder and a medium quality EVF panel » Leica used to say. Thanks no thanks but YMMV .

i see, lct, thank you for this link.  red-dots dream dropped - for now at least

in this case i guess there is no more left to do than to locate a Leica repair shop here in East Canada...and to wait...and to pay...

[Jeff S]

19 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Jeff S, as a reply to your question, learning how to focus on a Leica M, can I suggest the following.

Red Dot Forum has uploaded two M10 videos to YouTube, which are full of suggestions on how to focus the camera.  There is "Part 1" and then "Part 2".

Here's a link to Part 2:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R80mtgW9pag

Be sure to watch both.

I never learned to do it the way they show, but I've already spent a good bit of time practicing.  I could explain more here, but it's better if you hear it right from them, and being YouTube, they also show you what to do.  Actually, with all the questions and answers, there's a LOT of good information in these videos.

Things I never learned (yet) and need to work on:

a) if I move closer to my subject, which way do I turn the focus adjuster?

b) when I hold the camera and I'm about to take some photos, what should I do with the focus adjustment, and the "tab" that controls it?

I'm a slow learner - I've watched both videos several times, and practiced what they suggest.

I didn’t ask any question; just pasted a copy of the old forum FAQ to help you.  This is basic stuff, which I learned more than 35 years ago with my M cameras.  I’m quite familiar with David and Josh, but don’t need them for elementary tutorials.  No offense, but didn’t you use M film cameras for many years?  Nothing new under the sun with RF focusing.  If anything, the VF/RF in the M10 is much improved.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

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As for me, I learned how to focus a rangefinder camera with my Contax II, then IIa, then Nikon SP, and then my Leica M2.  Thinking back on my life, I'm still using my M cameras the way I used my older RF cameras, but turning the focusing ring directly, rather than the control on the top of the camera.

Staying with me for a bit, the "tricks" that Dave and Josh explained in their two Red Dot Forum M10 videos were things I never considered - for me, it's always just aligning the two images in the viewfinder.  I never pre-focused my camera, I never really even thought about what I was doing - I just did it.

 

The question I think Dave and Josh were addressing was how a newcomer to Leica could more quickly learn how to focus effectively, when they've probably never focused a camera before, and knew nothing about what it means, what it does, an how to do it.  I'm sure YOU don't need that information, but they were answering questions people were bringing up during the two-hour sessions.  

How many cameras for sale now, in 2022, require any knowledge about focusing?  How many cameras even require focusing?  ....and I wonder how many people who buy "the best" (Leica) have any idea what they're getting into?  

Back to me - this thread was about "Precision Focusing".  Maybe you're an expert at this, but I'm not sure how "expert" I am.  I learned long ago to bring the two images into alignment, and stop (without wiggling back and forth to get the perfect setting).  I'm not sure my eyes are capable of wiggling back and forth anyway - there is always some "wiggle room" where I'm not sure the focus is "perfect".  Normally I don't worry about this, but when we're talking about focusing perfectly on the pupil of the eye, especially if the subject is moving around a little, I struggle.  

(Of course, with my DSLR, I'd zoom in, focus perfectly, zoom out, and shoot.  I think I am more precise with my Visoflex than the rangefinder.  For me, it always has been a matter of quickly focus well enough with the rangefinder, compose, and shoot.  I did this better when I had younger eyes.....)

[Jeff S]

52 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

 I never pre-focused my camera, I never really even thought about what I was doing - I just did it.

 

 

Did you ever wonder what all those numbers and markings were on your lenses?  
 

Anyway, different tools for different tasks.  If you expect focusing perfection (using the RF) with your M, better be sure your cameras and lenses are perfectly calibrated in addition to correcting for any vision issues (including astigmatism)… and even then hope for some good luck, especially if using a fast lens wide open, without tripod and with anything but a static subject.  
 

Stopping down solves a lot of potential problems.  These days many care more about fuzzy backgrounds… and end up with fuzzy subjects and monotonous pics.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

Numbers and markings on my lenses?  No, I never noticed any markings and numbers.  Maybe that's because they are progressive lenses from Essilor.

Having posted what I did, it's obvious to me that there is more to this than what I understand.  No, I haven't sent my two-year-old M10 off to get the rangefinder calibrated.  My new glasses are only four months old, and they came from a shop that was specifically recommended by Essilor.

Unless f/1.4 is still considered "fast", I don't have or use one of the new f/.0 type lenses, and for that matter, my rangefinder is probably no more/less precise regardless of what lens I mount.

After reading your response, I did some searching, and I actually did find a potentially useful tool:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/586205-REG/Leica_12_006_Viewfinder_Magnifier_1_4x_for.html

Expensive, but maybe this is the best solution, short of new eyes.   🙂   Not sure why I didn't find this in my previous searches.  I don't think it will fit an M10 though, as the new viewfinders are larger than they used to be.

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Edited October 19, 2022 by MikeMyers

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Numbers and markings on my lenses?  No, I never noticed any markings and numbers.  Maybe that's because they are progressive lenses from Essilor.

Having posted what I did, it's obvious to me that there is more to this than what I understand.  No, I haven't sent my two-year-old M10 off to get the rangefinder calibrated.  My new glasses are only four months old, and they came from a shop that was specifically recommended by Essilor.

Unless f/1.4 is still considered "fast", I don't have or use one of the new f/.0 type lenses, and for that matter, my rangefinder is probably no more/less precise regardless of what lens I mount.

After reading your response, I did some searching, and I actually did find a potentially useful tool:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/586205-REG/Leica_12_006_Viewfinder_Magnifier_1_4x_for.html

Expensive, but maybe this is the best solution, short of new eyes.   🙂   Not sure why I didn't find this in my previous searches.  I don't think it will fit an M10 though, as the new viewfinders are larger than they used to be.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Maybe just read the old FAQ link I gave you already. It discusses magnifiers.. and why many like me don’t like them. And then maybe you should read the rest of the FAQ… probably many other basics you’ve missed.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

Thanks, Jeff.

I've got a free day today - will go through both of those links.  Probably a lot of them that I've missed, or forgotten.  In the meantime, I'll do the best I can with what I've got.  

If I haven't given up on my rangefinder cameras in well over 60 years, I doubt I ever will, regardless of how easier it is to do the technical stuff on the Nikon Cameras.  To me, it's far more important to create an interesting and good photo, than to create a technically good photo.

This specific thread was for just one technical thing - focusing.  To my way of thinking, the most important part of any photo should (usually) be sharp and clear.

[Jeff S]

Maybe spend free day shooting, not reading.  People won’t care about sharpness if the pic, and print, are worthy.  Same as 60 years ago…and long before.

Jeff

[Erato]

This is why I picked the street cats and dogs as a practicing subject. I took 5 shots while I met them, every and each shot count. I know some people irritate to choose the cats and dogs as a subject but it works for me.

BTW, some old glass is surprisingly amazing on my M10M or so.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

 

 

300% ⇓ please click on the photo for a 60% reduction sample cropped(due to the file size limitation).

Edited October 19, 2022 by Erato
adding more photo

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

Numbers and markings on my lenses?  No, I never noticed any markings and numbers.  Maybe that's because they are progressive lenses from Essilor.

 

I was referring to your camera (M) lenses.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

45 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Maybe spend free day shooting, not reading.

Good idea, but I'm stuck at home waiting for my new 28mm lens to be delivered by the Post Office.

You did me an unexpected favor.  I read the first thread, completely, including the part where they recommend NOT using a finger rest on the shutter release, and placing my now flat finger across the release, resting on the edges.  Since I've been fighting how to keep my camera still, I removed my finger rest.  Strange, now I apply pressure with my finger, and nothing happens.  Then with a bit more pressure the camera becomes rock-steady.  Then with a tiny bit more pressure, the shutter fires.  I thought the finger rest was designed to hold the camera more steady, not less.  I'll try this out later today (after my lens arrives) or tomorrow.

14 minutes ago, Erato said:

some old glass is surprisingly amazing on my M10M or so

That last shot is amazing, and even more so when I click on it.  Nice!!!!!!!

[Erato]

7 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

That last shot is amazing, and even more so when I click on it.  Nice!!!!!!!

Thank you, Mike. It was a partial cropped image(downsized to 60% after cropped) of the first picture posted above.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Erato

[MikeMyers]

3 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I was referring to your camera (M) lenses.

With my Leica, I do all of that before raising the camera to my face.  Once the camera is up, I check the exposure indicator (and adjust if necessary), the rangefinder, then recompose and all of my attention is on the composition and timing.  If anything changes, then it's back to re-focus, etc.  With my Nikon, there's a lot more to monitor.  (But with my Nikon, the camera is doing several of the things that I do manually on the Leica).

So many things to consider in those FAQ articles.  Thanks again for the "nudge".  🙂

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

With my Leica, I do all of that before raising the camera to my face.  

You wrote that, prior to seeing the Camera Talk video, you hadn’t considered pre-focusing or “thought about what you were doing.”  Hence my question about lens markings.

Jeff

[evikne]

1 hour ago, Erato said:

This is why I picked the street cats and dogs as a practicing subject. I took 5 shots while I met them, every and each shot count. I know some people irritate to choose the cats and dogs as a subject but it works for me.

BTW, some old glass is surprisingly amazing on my M10M or so.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

 

 

300% ⇓ please click on the photo for a 60% reduction sample cropped(due to the file size limitation).

I'm not quite sure how to interpret the cat's expression, but I guess he’s happy? 😄

Edited October 19, 2022 by evikne

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[MikeMyers]

49 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

You wrote that, prior to seeing the Camera Talk video, you hadn’t considered pre-focusing or “thought about what you were doing.”  Hence my question about lens markings.

For better or worse, in my opinion, there are a lot of things in photography that can be accomplished with a person't sub-conscious.  The sub-conscious mind is better and faster than the conscious mind for a lot of things, leaving the conscious mind to consider what belongs inside or outside the frame, and how to compose the picture.  I normally let my sub-conscious mind do the focusing.  I've been doing it for enough years that it just "happens" without my needing to think about it --- until I decide to be ultra-precise.  

This is helped by keeping the rangefinder window, the and the front and back of the viewfinder windows spotless.  Two things that I do often do consciously better than sub-consciously are "timing" and "composition", but many of my best photos were taken at just the right moment without my thinking about these things.  In sports photography, you can't wait for "the perfect moment", you have to "feel" when it will be, and already be shooting. 

I'm not as good as "the experts" at this stuff, but a huge amount of this stuff could be considered "preparation", being ready to take the perfect shot the moment it happens.  That is something I know I can improve, by participating here.