New Leica M6 Film Camera

[Huss]

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3 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Right, understood.  I'm just wondering if people are applying what they did for the M2/M3 to cameras with the quick load system and that's where the "bad habits" are coming from.

I think it is more from following bad advice.  Googling 'how to load a Leica'.  If you do that, and find Tamarkin's video (they are a big Leica shop in Chicago), it is, er, umm, surprising how bad his advice is.  Basically will turn your 36 exp roll of film into a 33 exp roll...  And that is a Leica shop, ignoring Leica's v simple and v excellent instructions!

[madNbad]

2 minutes ago, Huss said:

I think it is more from following bad advice.  Googling 'how to load a Leica'.  If you do that, and find Tamarkin's video (they are a big Leica shop in Chicago), it is, er, umm, surprising how bad his advice is.  Basically will turn your 36 exp roll of film into a 33 exp roll...  And that is a Leica shop, ignoring Leica's v simple and v excellent instructions!

Somewhere in this thread, I mentioned watching a couple of how to load your Leica M videos. Most were five to seven minutes long and full of misinformation. There was one, as Huss has pointed out numerous times, followed the instructions. It was a thirty second video.

[williamj]

FWIW the M3 manual says that once you've inserted the film into the camera, check that the film is engaged with the sprocket, close the back, shut the base plate, rewind the film until you feel some tension, and then wind on twice until the dial is at zero. I get more than 36 exposures this way. If the dots don't spin you've done it wrong. There's no winding on with the back open. If the film and sprockets don't line up I rewind the film until they do, then close the back and shut the base plate and then wind on.

[logan2z]

22 minutes ago, williamj said:

FWIW the M3 manual says that once you've inserted the film into the camera, check that the film is engaged with the sprocket, close the back, shut the base plate, rewind the film until you feel some tension, and then wind on twice until the dial is at zero. I get more than 36 exposures this way. If the dots don't spin you've done it wrong. There's no winding on with the back open. If the film and sprockets don't line up I rewind the film until they do, then close the back and shut the base plate and then wind on.

Interesting that the M2 and M3 manuals describe the loading process differently.  The M2 manual also doesn't mention turning the rewind knob to eliminate any slack in the film cassette.  I do this out of habit anyway. 

Here's the relevant section from the M2 manual:

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[williamj]

49 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Interesting that the M2 and M3 manuals describe the loading process differently.  The M2 manual also doesn't mention turning the rewind knob to eliminate any slack in the film cassette.  I do this out of habit anyway. 

Here's the relevant section from the M2 manual:

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It is very strange to see the difference. To prove I'm not making stuff up, I enclose the relevant section of the M3 manual I mentioned. It is for double stroke camera, so when it says advance the film by two strokes it means one frame. Cheers.

M3 DS loading.tiff

Edited December 26, 2022 by williamj
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[Matlock]

54 minutes ago, williamj said:

It is very strange to see the difference. To prove I'm not making stuff up, I enclose the relevant section of the M3 manual I mentioned. It is for double stroke camera, so when it says advance the film by two strokes it means one frame. Cheers.

 

It is not really that strange, the M3 was introduced in 1954 and the M2 in 1957, thoughts changed over those 3 years and the M2 instructions reflect that.

[logan2z]

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2 hours ago, williamj said:

To prove I'm not making stuff up, I enclose the relevant section of the M3 manual I mentioned.

I didn't think you were making anything up, I had read the M3 manual and knew you were describing what it said accurately. 

As @Matlocksaid, Leica's thoughts on how best to load film must have evolved over time. 

[madNbad]

After the excitement and speculation about a new film camera from Leica, buyers stepped up, paying a premium price, waited for delivery only to discover the camera has flaws that should have been corrected. For a company that has built its reputation on quality, shipping a camera that scratches film or has shutter problems is a warning flag. Wether it’s in the design, assembly or even faulty parts from the suppliers, it would be better for all if they made the announcement no more M6s will be shipped until the problems are corrected and the buyer will receive a camera that meets the quality expectations. 
We all realize the film camera production from Leica is a very small portion of their catalog but none the less, the people buying and using the analog bodies are some of the best ambassadors for the brand. It’s better to hear, I love my new Leica as opposed to They finally fixed it.

[Jewl]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

It was not just brand new M6 and MP cameras scratching the film... It was also paint chipping on the brand new M-A Titanium Special Editions for 20K, new Summiluxes FLE II Close Focus collapsing on the inside and other disturbing stuff. Not cool at all.

I agree, they have a general quality issue! If I look back, 4 cameras I had for the last 6 years, all of them needed to be at least once (my M11 was 3 times in Wetzlar) at the Customer Care. If the price tag wasn't that hefty, I might be able to accept this. But if I think of any camera I had before, does not matter how expensive (they were rather very cheap as compared to Leica), I have never seen such quality problems. None of them ever had to be serviced (I am not a professional) - for example, my Canon 400D from 2006 is still fully functional and it received way less care than any of my Leicas!

Of course, I am not a lifelong Leica user and therefore cannot judge whether this worsened over time, but still, I don't think this can be normal. I really abstain from buying any further cameras in the close future as this costs me beside of time (I cannot take photos and need to deal with the situation of finding out how to reproduce issues) also a lot of nerves. I would be just grateful if those cameras I have work as expected/promised. Way to go...

[charlesphoto99]

I’m a pro, and the only Nikon I ever had services, lens or body, was due to my dropping or rough handling. Leicas on the other hand, often take months long holidays, even straight brand new out of the box. They need to get their act together. 

[Mikep996]

I've owned 4 film and 3 digital Leicas - M2, M6, M6TTL, M7,  M10, M10R, Q2.  None of them have ever given me any problem at all.  My 1984 first batch M6 has never received a service of any kind and is still working perfectly.

I'm not saying that the complaints are overblown or incorrect, just saying that on forums it is often only the complaints that anyone hears about.  As has been said, if someone was interested in buying a Leica and came to this forum for information, they would probably come to the conclusion that Jenny's guidance was appropriate when she hollered:  "Run Forrest, RUN!!!!" 😱

[Matlock]

6 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

I've owned 4 film and 3 digital Leicas - M2, M6, M6TTL, M7,  M10, M10R, Q2.  None of them have ever given me any problem at all.  My 1984 first batch M6 has never received a service of any kind and is still working perfectly.

I'm not saying that the complaints are overblown or incorrect, just saying that on forums it is often only the complaints that anyone hears about.  As has been said, if someone was interested in buying a Leica and came to this forum for information, they would probably come to the conclusion that Jenny's guidance was appropriate when she hollered:  "Run Forrest, RUN!!!!" 😱

Very true. The only Leica I have had any trouble with was my M7 which I bought used, problem with the shutter speed dial was quickly fixed by Leica and the camera fully upgraded so I had what was in effect a new camera. No troubles at all with my M6TTL, MP3, M-A. M10-D or M10-R. Also a few other used models.

[Matlock]

2 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

If that someone had IQ higher than room temperature that would surely not be the case.

Sadly it is a fact that negative posts do have an effect in some cases. Quite often those negative posts appear and then nothing more is heard from that person which does make me question the validity of some of them. It is not just this forum that has those problems though. I believe that the vast majority of Leica owners experience none of the various reported defects (although there are some very valid complaints made, which is as it should be) and some of those owners actually get out and take photos with their cameras. I had a problem with my M-A but it turned out that the problem was with the idiot behind the camera (i.e. me) and I am pretty sure that quite a few of the reported defects stem from the same source.

[Matlock]

1 minute ago, Al Brown said:

Things like repeatedly scratching film on multiple copies of brand new cameras despite cleaning all surfaces, titanium paint of brand new cameras chipping, diaphragms of brand new lenses collapsing and brand new M11s being suddenly bricked and not turning on are most definitely not user errors, no matter how hard one believes in fairytales. The "it has never happened to me, so it surely does not exist" stance is also a very common here on the forum.

We get these claims all the time and some are entirely legitimate, however quite a few are merely hearsay. In spite of how it sounds, so far there have only been two VERIFIED cases of film scratching but plenty of claims. I think I made it quite clear that that I accept that some problems do exist but they are not as common as the posts on this forum would suggest.

[Huss]

47 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

I've owned 4 film and 3 digital Leicas - M2, M6, M6TTL, M7,  M10, M10R, Q2.  None of them have ever given me any problem at all.  My 1984 first batch M6 has never received a service of any kind and is still working perfectly.

I'm not saying that the complaints are overblown or incorrect, just saying that on forums it is often only the complaints that anyone hears about.  As has been said, if someone was interested in buying a Leica and came to this forum for information, they would probably come to the conclusion that Jenny's guidance was appropriate when she hollered:  "Run Forrest, RUN!!!!" 😱

That is why I am asking anyone who has a new M6 (or MP I guess) to come forward and let us know of their experiences.  It is the only sampling that we have, but seeing that this is a Leica enthusiast site, it still is a good sampling since it is populated by Leica enthusiasts!

Right now the count is 11 cameras reported - 7 good, 4 defective.

And that then leads to the second part of this issue.  Leica ships brand new defective cameras which they have claimed have gone through a rigorous QA process. And deals with it by saying the new owners have to wait about 6 weeks for a repair, when the right thing to do is just replace them.  Don't have a replacement stash?  Well, that's on Leica.  But of course they put it on the new owner.

There is no excuse for that repair timeline.  Understaffed?  Hire and train staff.  It's what every other industry does.  But Leica gets a pass because the fan bois deem this acceptable.

The funny thing is that in a way I am a Leica fan boi - I currently use 1 M3, 2 M7s, 1 M-A, 1 MP, 1 Md-A, 1 M5, 1 1F, 1 R9, 1 M10-r.  This is because they are fantastic cameras to use - there is nothing else like them.

The difference being I am open and honest about how things are and should be.  Instead of deflecting real issues as user error or one offs.

[LocalHero1953]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:17 AM, Al Brown said:

I find amusing sporadic gaslighting attempts here that the bad samples are just a tiny fraction of production.

When reason fails, try insults.🙄

[mshchem]

I got no problems with my new MP or M11. The M11 I purchased after most of the problems were resolved. 

 

I do find it ridiculous that Huss got a new flagship camera that scratches film,  and that rather than sending him new one he has to wait 2 months for repairs. 

[Jewl]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb mshchem:

I got no problems with my new MP or M11. The M11 I purchased after most of the problems were resolved. 

 

I do find it ridiculous that Huss got a new flagship camera that scratches film,  and that rather than sending him new one he has to wait 2 months for repairs. 

That's what I am really mad about. You buy a new camera, then you have to fight that someone trusts you (doesn't declare you as crazy) that something is wrong and start looking into it. But it is always treated as if it is normal that a new camera needs to go to service in the first 4 weeks... No apologies, no compensation, nothing! At least you can consider yourself happy that it was under warranty, woohoo!

Otherwise, the real leicaman would rather pay the service fee because free / inexpensive things cannot be good! 

[madNbad]

When this thread began the was much excitement and speculation. Leica was developing a NEW FILM CAMERA, what would it be and how long before it actually arrived. Now that it's been with us for a while with just enough flaws to make you wonder if the precision production video was written by ChatGBT. Loose lens mounts, sticky ISO dials and the mystery scratches caused by who knows what. At the five thousand Euros/Pounds/Dollars mark, buyers should be receiving a flawless product. It not like there are new M6s rolling off the production line  and into a shipping crate and Leica knows the buyers are willing to wait for the product because there is nothing else like it. Take the time to check them, pull one off the line and run some film through it but deliver a camera that works right out of the box. That's what customers expect frim the brand and they're main job should be to deliver it.

I still think a weather resistant, composite body CM would have grabbed a much bigger share of the market. I would've bought one.

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[Huss]

1 hour ago, madNbad said:

... Take the time to check them, pull one off the line and run some film through it but deliver a camera that works right out of the box. That's what customers expect frim the brand and they're main job should be to deliver it.

..

The insult to injury part is after the camera was returned to them to be fixed, they did not bother to take the time to check if it was fixed!  This completely lackadaisical approach at the manufacturing AND service level is what makes it so disconcerting.

It really is as if the end user is not actually meant to use it as a camera, but make a youtube unboxing video for clicks, then place it on a shelf.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Huss