Another M11 vs M10M question thread

[Hurlow]

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Quick question for the experts.
 

I’ve been really wavering between the M11 and M10M (or waiting on the M11M). Most of my photography is done at low iso values with a tripod, though I do nearly exclusively black and white (city/landscapes, etc.). I know that the monochrome is better at high iso values (~2 stops according to the review video from red dot) , but I was wondering if there was any advantage to the monochrom under these conditions (low iso/tripod) that offset the increased MP of the 11.

 

Thanks for any words of wisdom.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Hurlow
Typo

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[Jeff S]

The M10 Monochrom files are also roughly equivalent to 60MP due to the lack of a color array.  But that also means that one cannot use color channels in PP as with the M11; colored lens filters provide a different potential workflow. I find that shooting with a Monochrom also results in a different mindset, as I’m not distracted by looking for color pics. Print quality, for me, comes down to many other variables; mostly depending on me.

Jeff

[Hurlow]

7 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The M10 Monochrom files are also roughly equivalent to 60MP due to the lack of a color array.  But that also means that one cannot use color channels in PP as with the M11; colored lens filters provide a different potential workflow. I find that shooting with a Monochrom also results in a different mindset, as I’m not distracted by looking for color pics. Print quality, for me, comes down to many other variables; mostly depending on me.

Jeff

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the feedback. That’s a good point about mindset, though my being colorblind generally means that I’m always in the black and white mindset anyway 😁

I’m leaning a bit toward the M11, but just wanted to make sure that I wouldn’t be losing anything using the M11 and continuing to convert to black-and-white (at low iso) versus the M10M. Wish I knew when that M11M ‘Rene’ would be arriving…

[Erato]

Just a gentle reminder regarding the halation algorithm against the scene of complex city light, it might create an unexpected(nasty) result to you while using M11. Especially while the wavelength of light sources(spectrum) are yellow/red/blue.

[Guest]

If you have the patience to watch a detailed analysis on YouTube (I guess: yes, because you are looking at a chunk of money to buy M11 or M10M), I would recommend these two videos:

Leica M11 vs. M10-R vs. M10 Monochrom Shoot-out

SHARP as 120MP | LEICA M10 MONO vs 150MP PHASE ONE IQ4

 

[Jon Warwick]

I have the M10M and a 100mp Fuji GFX. At 60” wide prints and on-screen it is near impossible for me to detect more detail from the GFX. The M10M really punches above its weight in terms of resolution. I think that’s partly helped by the availability of exceptional lenses too (eg, new APOs including ones from Voigtlander) for the Leica, such that the entire imaging “chain” is optimised.

But what I most like about the Monochroms is something hard to describe, but I unfailingly see it quickly in every image when I compare like-for-like images with a color filter array camera, ie, the Monochrom images simply look less processed / less digital to my eyes, because the complex color filter array and algorithms for creating color etc are clearly not needed on it. It’s a purer rendering to my eyes, and I can detect it easily especially in large prints. Now whether other people detect it too is another matter entirely! 

[a.noctilux]

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Hello @Hurlow

my free suggestion is (if not done yet) buying the former Leica Monochrom to see if the dynamic is there with your prefered lens.

In my view, lens in use is more important than the sensor (mostly monochrom one suffering "high light blow") for "low-light-needing-tripod" situations.

Noctilux ( created for low light use ! as the naming ) will not help even closing down (coma/sun stars/aperture blobs/etc.) if we use Elmarit or Summicron/Summilux.

this chart (link) shows same dynamic range at ISO 200 (M10-M, M11, a bit less 320/M246)

Edited July 31, 2022 by a.noctilux

[hdmesa]

I would get the M10M now and trade for the M11M when it comes out. The Monochrom cameras hold their value very well.

And I always post this when people bring up colorblindness since many do not know: they make glasses that correct for colorblindness now, allow you to see in full color.

 

[Kwesi]

On 7/30/2022 at 6:01 PM, Hurlow said:

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the feedback. That’s a good point about mindset, though my being colorblind generally means that I’m always in the black and white mindset anyway 😁

I’m leaning a bit toward the M11, but just wanted to make sure that I wouldn’t be losing anything using the M11 and continuing to convert to black-and-white (at low iso) versus the M10M. Wish I knew when that M11M ‘Rene’ would be arriving…

Hi Harlow,

welcome to the forum. Speaking as a previous owner of the M246 and M10P and current owner of the M11, I would strongly advise you to get the M11 and convert your files to greyscale as needed while you wait for the M11 Monochrom.  I say this because as amazingly sharp as the M10 Monochrom files are the the malleability of the M11 files and user experience are something else. I personally could never go back. There is no price difference between the M11 and M10 Monochrom. If I were you, I would shoot the M11 now, get to know the platform, and transition to the Monochrom version when it arrives. 

[Herr Barnack]

On 7/30/2022 at 5:48 PM, Jeff S said:

The M10 Monochrom files are also roughly equivalent to 60MP due to the lack of a color array.  But that also means that one cannot use color channels in PP as with the M11; colored lens filters provide a different potential workflow. I find that shooting with a Monochrom also results in a different mindset, as I’m not distracted by looking for color pics. Print quality, for me, comes down to many other variables; mostly depending on me.

Jeff

Good points.

@Hurlow In your original post, you say "... I do nearly exclusively black and white..."

Given that, I have to recommend the M10 Monochrom over the M11.  As an M10M user, I can't see any way that you could go wrong with the M10M.

[geotrupede]

the only reason to go M11 is for the new features, great battery and small files when needed. evf if one wants.

BUT

true monochrom files are another thing. I have seen videos and studied this in the past few months. seemed like M11 and M10M are the same, that it is easy to convert in B&W from colour.  but I question the type of photography that you see in these videos, it is really nice, but not representative of all B&W styles. 

--

it all depends on what do you do to the B&W files. if you apply aggressive curves, use colour filters, pump up the contrast and underexpose to protect highlights, knowing you can always adjust the dark areas of a shot, then M10M is the only way. with M11 this approach generate tons of noise.  I can see in your case, landscape, you will look for details and be zooming in to see these... 

--

with M11 you need to use digital filters with caution, curves and contrast not to the extreme. I have changed the technique to auto ISO so that noise is minimised rather highlight protected. this is because the dynamic range in M11. By doing so the files are ok. once printed are hard to distinguish.  yet, not the same.

---

I had the same dilemma as you, bought a M11 as I had to have colours. It took me a week and some very nice people here explaining the ins and outs to adapt to the new approach. I am now satisfied, M11 works for me, but I have changed the workflow quite significantly. 

So my advice is that if you are intending to use for B&W forget the M11 and simply get the MM10. No brainer. 

G>

PS if you want I can send you some DNG from M11 to play with, there are some on DPreview. you can then try converting to b&w and see. PM if you need anything. and good luck!

[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb geotrupede:

it all depends on what do you do to the B&W files. if you apply aggressive curves, use colour filters, pump up the contrast and underexpose to protect highlights, knowing you can always adjust the dark areas of a shot, then M10M is the only way. with M11 this approach generate tons of noise.  I can see in your case, landscape, you will look for details and be zooming in to see these... 

Of course, a monochrome sensor is technically better than the same color sensor. But these differences hardly ever play a role in practical photography. The most important reason to buy a M-Monochrome is that you then think monochrome, because you don't always have to decide between color and black and white. You can see the appropriate subjects better. 

[a.noctilux]

I agree that B&W mindset is the best way to use & appreciate Monochrom.

With "colored" sensor I can not "think B&W" (it's just me?) in the field.

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb a.noctilux:

I agree that B&W mindset is the best way to use & appreciate Monochrom.

With "colored" sensor I can not "think B&W" (it's just me?) in the field.

Fully agree with you. I "see" the pictures in my"inner" eye in b&w but I don't know why. OK I'm coming from b&w analog times. By the way: One thing I'm missing is the "Negartiv" It was (is) easy to see from the negativ which worth to enlarge. So a Mono with RAW b&w in negative would be the "goat". 

My 262 (sorry no Mono) is set to b&w - mode but the color RAW look often strange to me (  ) and it's sometimes hard to convert them into b&w (I like nik most) and "over photoshop" them. The "worst" work flow to me ist the Leica SL set to b&w. The viewfinder in b&w is a no go for me. I know many photographer are happy with the mono viewfinder but for me it's a "strange world".

At last: Here a youtube-Video showing all the Ms

 

[elmars]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb a.noctilux:

With "colored" sensor I can not "think B&W" (it's just me?) in the field.

No, it‘s me too. 

[Erato]

Some famous quotes, FYR.

“A good color picture is usually a good black and white too.” – John Beardsworth

“To see in color is a delight for the eye but to see in black and white is a delight for the soul” – Andri Cauldwell

“When you photograph people in color, you photograph their clothes. But when you photograph people in Black and white, you photograph their souls!” – Ted Grant

"Color is descriptive. Black and white is interpretive." -- Eliott Erwitt

“Good black and white photography is not about the removal of color!” – Rob Sheppard

“One very important difference between color and monochromatic photography is this: in black and white you suggest; in color you state. Much can be implied by suggestion, but statement demands certainty… absolute certainty.” – Paul Outerbridge

 

To me, I'm not a photographer, I'm just another brick on the wall -- another lucky Leica owner. Black and White Photography to me is timeless. It's all about the light, the shades of gray, the tone and the invisible connections.
M10M is an excellent and overkill tool to me. It's just like the learning curve of painting, the basic is drawing, sketching, and that's why I choose M10M.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Erato

[Jeff S]

30 minutes ago, Erato said:

“A good color picture is usually a good black and white too.” – John Beardsworth

 

 

Not my experience at all. Color saturation/hue has no effect on black & white tonality; only luminance/brightness does that.  In a good color picture, the actual color matters; not so in b&w.  Color conversion to black and white might produce a good’ or perhaps intriguing result, but it won’t typically be ‘special’ without understanding this fundamental distinction.

The video linked here demonstrates the point…

 

Jeff

Edited August 2, 2022 by Jeff S

[Erato]

12 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Not my experience at all. Color saturation/hue has no effect on black & white tonality; only luminance/brightness does that.  In a good color picture, the actual color matters; not so in b&w.  Color conversion to black and white might produce a good’ or perhaps intriguing result, but it won’t typically be ‘special’ without understanding this fundamental distinction.

Jeff

Agree with you partially...^^b

I guess that John might trying to given an imply regarding some fundamental skill sets such as composition, light control and more are the common ground for either color or Black and White Photography. 

I'm not him, and I can not speak for him. But it's always good to look at the bright side.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Erato

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[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Erato said:

Agree with you partially...^^b

I guess that John might trying to given a imply regarding some fundamental skill sets such as composition, light control and more are the common ground for either color or Black and White Photography. 

I'm not him, and I can not speak for him. But it's always good to look at the bright side.

My point is more that a ‘great’ color picture will rarely make a ‘great’ b&w picture, or vice versa, even when all the other factors are optimized.  There is a reason why it works best in b/w vs color IMO.  In any case, you might watch the video to appreciate the  underlying basis for the comment.  Color has no effect on black and white tones.

Jeff

[Erato]

42 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

My point is more that a ‘great’ color picture will rarely make a ‘great’ b&w picture, or vice versa, even when all the other factors are optimized.  There is a reason why it works best in b/w vs color IMO.  In any case, you might watch the video to appreciate the  underlying basis for the comment.  Color has no effect on black and white tones.

Jeff

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Black and White also Color Photography are both sharing the same terms so-called tone.

In color photography, the tone is about the balance of light and darkness. Other than that, the major factors are color spectrum and color stauration.

Basically, in the Black and White, the tone are classified into three different primary categories, but it's more complicated as what we thought about(spectrum/wavelength):

• The dark tone, it's dark with low lights or dark tone, for instance, low key scene
• The clear tone, the photo is rather clear with highlights or bright tones, for instance, high key scene.
• Nature tone, it's neither dark nor bright, it is a balanced tone

On the sidetones, I am more concerning the subject linked to the story line, textures, shapes, patterns and leading lines. I don't care about colors in the filed of Black and White Photography.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Erato
sidenotes added