M11 is

[hdmesa]

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53 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

C1… post #9

Jeff

I read it as capturing one image instead of Capture One 🥴

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[geotrupede]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

Since you liked the high ISO shots above shot in brighter light, it may be the M11 sensor read noise you find objectionable.

Not sure about the technical aspect beyond the buttons and dials 😉 Yesterday weather was bad, so light not ideal and little. I went for a stroll, took some pictures of buildings, were blurry (slow shutter...) and out of focus (perhaps not the best lens for sharpness). Then went home and adjusted, looking into details, to realise it was a bit smudgy. Then I checked and the noise reduction in C1 was half way in, etc. Taking that off made details a little better, but then noise increased a lot. 

I think it is a bit an issue of expectations too, I do not expect iso performance out of M9 so I adjust the shooting style. The SL2S is what created an issue as I have learned not to bother with iso as everything is possible. clearly the SL2s is another thing... MM1 is different story so not comparable. 

I think M11 is fine, just me need some time to adjust.

Thanks for all info!

G.

 

[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

Ha ha...   M11 mono 😉 ... need some significant saving for that...  next camera will be in 10 years (so we all say until it happens... ).

I have created a C1 profile for the M11 to do BW but results are far from MM1 look... on that I use a yellow filter and cannot seem to be able to replicate. since I use a very strong contrast and S curve, when I start to mess around with the blue channel the image breaks badly. the SL2S manages just about, but grain is colossal, which is acceptable as it looks like an old grainy film (as opposed to the fine grain of the MM). 

On the M11 I have not yet succeeded in replicating the same look, so used a lesser contrast and S curve, but learning the limits. The main difference being the contrast of sky vs face and skin.

For colour images (typically family), I noticed the skin tones are a bit too orange, what I would associate with a CMOS from the past time, but it is summer and everybody in the family has a tan so not sur.. perhaps we are orange like that 😉 

What I really like about the M11 is the weight of the black model and the grippy finish, really really cool. Ashamed to admit, but I have taped the red dot so it feels/ looks like a P/MM. 

G>

 

 

To replicate a monochrome sensor with a yellow filter, you need to push the yellow slider up in the C1 Black and White panel and push the cyan and blue sliders down. You are using that first, before you make curves adjustments, right? Below is what I use to emulate a red filter, just use less of it for yellow:

 

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Edited July 28, 2022 by hdmesa

[geotrupede]

Just now, hdmesa said:

To replicate a monochrome sensor with a yellow filter, you need to push the yellow slider up in the C1 Black and White panel. You are using that first, before you make curves adjustments, right? Below is what I use to emulate a red filter, just use less of it for yellow:

 

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Ok, this is SUPER useful!

what do you mean by 'You are using that first, before you make curves adjustments, right' ?

how can I change the order of the adjustments in C1? I was under the impression it did not matter?

So for example I would have BW enabled, then contrast, curve and all saved into a style?

thanks

G>

 

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

Ok, this is SUPER useful!

what do you mean by 'You are using that first, before you make curves adjustments, right' ?

how can I change the order of the adjustments in C1? I was under the impression it did not matter?

So for example I would have BW enabled, then contrast, curve and all saved into a style?

thanks

G>

 

Sorry, the way I said it was confusing. I mean that doing it in that order helps creatively – you will make much more mild adjustments to curves after you've done your thing in the Black and White panel.

Adjusting color DNGs into b&w is the opposite of adjusting for DNGs taken with a monochrome sensor. For the monochrome DNGs, you really have to push the curves and levels hard to get a strong impact. With color files, it's the sliders in the B&W panel that do most of the heavy lifting, at least for me.

Edited July 28, 2022 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

Once you have the color sliders where you like them, something else you might tweak before moving onto curves is White Balance. Moving WB toward cold or warm will change how the sliders balance out on either side. Also note that increasing saturation can push what you did with the sliders even further if needed, or reducing saturation can be like fading the effect a bit.

[geotrupede]

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Would you mind to give these files a look? ISO 3200.

The bricks are all smudgy UNLESS the noise reduction is set to minimum, and if that then the window to the left, zooming in, will show quite a bit of noise.

ISO 3200, I know but SL2s...

and thank you for mini tutorial, need to learn a lot for colour -> BW.  I was doing all wrong, starting from curves, etc etc.

anyway:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oui2bwtz6tbixh9/AABp6mt6UnaV_Bgn5nYqFHP-a?dl=0

 

[geotrupede]

I have also added the two styles mentioned within the folder, if curious

G>

 

[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

Would you mind to give these files a look? ISO 3200.

The bricks are all smudgy UNLESS the noise reduction is set to minimum, and if that then the window to the left, zooming in, will show quite a bit of noise.

ISO 3200, I know but SL2s...

and thank you for mini tutorial, need to learn a lot for colour -> BW.  I was doing all wrong, starting from curves, etc etc.

anyway:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oui2bwtz6tbixh9/AABp6mt6UnaV_Bgn5nYqFHP-a?dl=0

 

I wouldn't say you were doing it wrong, you were just missing a very powerful tool with the B&W sliders.

I downloaded the DNG. Looks like an R lens adapted, right? Anyway, the bricks are not in focus, they are slightly out of focus. The only thing that looks in focus is the lit sign that says "global". Add to that, even at 1/1000 sec., it looks like there is slight motion blur. Were you using the electronic shutter by any chance?

[geotrupede]

was with my daughter going to the bus stop 😉

lens is a summicron pre asph, all beaten up and no electronic shutter

not sure how can it be blurry, perhaps everybody was rashing but usually 1000 is enough to freeze.

UNLESS the binning happens in time? like 4 images and average or something similar?

if you put noise reduction to zero for colour then the bricks become more defined, quite a bit.

 

[geotrupede]

could it be diffraction instead? I think I was testing at f8?

[hdmesa]

54 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

was with my daughter going to the bus stop 😉

lens is a summicron pre asph, all beaten up and no electronic shutter

not sure how can it be blurry, perhaps everybody was rashing but usually 1000 is enough to freeze.

UNLESS the binning happens in time? like 4 images and average or something similar?

if you put noise reduction to zero for colour then the bricks become more defined, quite a bit.

 

Ah, ok I turned NR to zero and looks much better. The NR was softening some areas and not others, so that was throwing me off. Maybe C1 has a bug with NR and is doing what it would do for the full 60mp file, because I've never seen this with the full files.

I think this looks pretty good overall for ISO 3200 and binned. But I think it might look better to shoot at the full 60mp and then reduce the image size on export.

Edit: Ok, this is weird – I guess the DNG is keeping some settings you made? Is that part of the profile you use then? Single pixel slider was set to "5" – that's for removing dead pixels and maybe artifacts, but it was also blurring the image some. And Film Grain slider was on Fine Grain and a setting of "5".

//

Here are is a screenshot of a 100% crop showing the JPEG you provided (top) along with the edits I did to the DNG (bottom) – click the image to see sharper version as the forum previews are quite soft:

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Here are the settings I changed (plus changed Film Grain to zero). It's a little unconventional, but I often use the Sharpness slider in the Lens Correction panel before I do any sharpening in the Sharpening panel, and it does wonders for sharpness without a lot of side effects.

Edited July 28, 2022 by hdmesa

[Guest]

4 hours ago, geotrupede said:

Actually I have tried with the DNG-S which should behave even better but empirical evidence (little of admittedly) suggests it is the same thing as the DNG-L.

Somehow scaling out of camera may be better?

What is your experience with this? Would be great to exchange notes.

From what I was reading all over, I was hoping for the little files to be stellar, with 'wider dynamic range' and 'less noise'. Dynamic range is incredible, with all the formats, truly.  But noise... a lot more of it that i expected 

G.

 

It is not you, or any element in your workflow, or your camera settings. M11 pixel-by-pixel has more noise than e.g. M10-P. It works great as a "sunny 16" camera especially when you can use it at base ISO 64 and fast shutter speeds. Best image quality of all M and SL cameras, under those circumstances (perhaps not counting the M10M, which is always competitive as long as black and white is desired).

Having gone through exactly your experiences I bought the M10M in addition to the M11. Then I needed a video capable camera in addition, which led to purchase of SL2-S, which now surprisingly is becoming my most used photographic camera as well (outside of aforementioned sunny 16 M11 hero scenarios).

Some small relief for M11 users, newly as of today (July 27th 2022), is the availability of DXO PhotoLab 5 raw editor with M11 compatibility. It has a DeepPRIME denoising option (has to be turned on manually for each picture), which is no snake oil in my experience. Example, shot in Austin this April, M11 with 28mm Summilux f/1.4, at ISO 10000, 1/30":

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100% magnification:

I believe DXO has a 30 day trial version, so you could check if that helps with the pictures you already took and didn't find fully to your satisfaction because of camera noise.

[geotrupede]

31 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Ah, ok I turned NR to zero and looks much better. The NR was softening some areas and not others, so that was throwing me off. Maybe C1 has a bug with NR and is doing what it would do for the full 60mp file, because I've never seen this with the full files.

I think this looks pretty good overall for ISO 3200 and binned. But I think it might look better to shoot at the full 60mp and then reduce the image size on export.

Edit: Ok, this is weird – I guess the DNG is keeping some settings you made? Is that part of the profile you use then? Single pixel slider was set to "5" – that's for removing dead pixels and maybe artifacts, but it was also blurring the image some. And Film Grain slider was on Fine Grain and a setting of "5".

well spotted, '5' was not intended, however removing it does not change much.

image is probably underexposed, MM style, to preserve sky. maybe different approach is better

G>

[Guest]

Just now, geotrupede said:

well spotted, '5' was not intended, however removing it does not change much.

image is probably underexposed, MM style, to preserve sky. maybe different approach is better

G>

Yeah, the binning does NEXT TO NOTHING for noise. Not worth getting excited about. Several users have found, and documented, that you get better image quality by shooting at full resolution and reducing size (down from 60 MP) in post processing -- less noise, better details.

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

well spotted, '5' was not intended, however removing it does not change much.

image is probably underexposed, MM style, to preserve sky. maybe different approach is better

G>

It still needed more underexposure if you wanted to keep the sky looking natural, but high-key sky if fine sometimes. Anyway, I think you just had a combination of sharpening + noise reduction + film grain that was giving you hell on this particular image.

Only other thing I would mention is that many older, adapted film lenses like your R lens can take a ton of sharpening in C1 before you start seeing artifacts.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

image is probably underexposed, MM style, to preserve sky. maybe different approach is better

Not sure. Your DNG file needs a bit of NR (here by Dfine2) but detail rendition remains significant.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-cCjqtgQ/0/c9ced108/O/i-cCjqtgQ.jpg

[geotrupede]

I like the support from you all, thank you!!!!

So today I did have a quick stroll with sunlight and results are much better, starting to figure out things. Indeed it is  starting to look good. First this morning I was using a 50 screw lens and had some issues at infinity (calibration issue) as it did work fine by using the same focusing position from the sl2s but would be blurry if at infinity on the rangefinder, etc. Scary! Is the sensor messed up? Luckily not.

A bit of a scare... I tried with a 90, and voila! All good, but also showing the importance of the focus plane at 60mp. One needs to focus, at f 8, even half a mile away... incredible. DNGS/M not an issue, is all the same but the DNGL shows the difference between 200 and 50 meters... 

Then was street stroll time, using the high speed burst, which is quite nice compared to the 1fps of old memory, and of course ISO3200 f8, 1/2000th. With a 35, a bit shooting from the hip, noisy but not terrible. And absolutely comparable to the MM1 when processed. The recipe is in the folder mentioned above, in case somebody wanted to test.

Then I tried few flash shots with the old system from the M6 and all seems ok, actually quite good with the dragging technique.

I will post some of the results later, but good news for me is that it is a fine piece of equipment unlike me 😉

As usual... start reading the manual, ask the experts, etc, etc.

Thank you all!

G.

 

 

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[geotrupede]

Some experiments here, including liberal cropping and BW conversion:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jwb0y8073woy1wa/AACD3vPeiSdNJgozG3nQzIz9a?dl=0

G.

 

[Sid Bolan]

Thank you for sharing M11 teething problems so generously. Would love to know more about your flash technique. Have not yet found the idea flash for my M10-P.