M11 is

[geotrupede]

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Hi all,

Just to share my experience.

Been thinking about an upgrade from M9p/MM for a while. I own an SL2s for video, but was unsure about the MM upgrade (MM10? or M11?).

Having read loads on the forums I had a test at the shop and indeed the sound of the shutter is pretty much the same. Startup time slightly slower on M11 but totally fine. 

The black finish is lighter but when a lens is used the difference is less prominent, yet it feel a bit like a Q?

The tactile feel of the finish is quite stunning and very grippy, not sure about durability given the short ownership, but really happy about it.

The adventure continues, but seems quite a solid camera, and funny enough the low resolution files are a welcomed option for me as have limited room for 60MP files... but benefit from a younger generation M with all new features and smaller form factor... wow so small!

G.

PS the MM10 is also a thing of beauty but decided for the smaller files (optional) and for the 60MP for conversion to BW. from the samples online works for me. More to follow 😉

[a.noctilux]

Very simple, indeed.

New, only M11 😉 maybe with some time waiting...

Second hand, M10 and co. plenty available now.

Maybe if battery life can be a concern ...

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by a.noctilux

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[geotrupede]

Actually M10P is not that common any longer, M10R seems quite common and some MM10, all second hand, can be found for 5k pounds. The M11 is also not that uncommon in shops.  I went for the M11 as I am hoping to use the 18MP with all the benefits.

From preliminary shots all good, especially in BW. But some odd colour overexposed and an orangish skin tone. All to be fiddle about in post, etc. SL2S seemed simpler to handle in term of colour, but of course a beast.

Need to check I have the last FW, but waiting for battery to charge.

G.

 

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, geotrupede said:

PS the MM10 is also a thing of beauty but decided for the smaller files (optional) and for the 60MP for conversion to BW. from the samples online works for me. More to follow 😉

No criticism of your decision at all, but just want to point out that M10 Monochrom files are 40 MP, yet render roughly equivalent to a 60 MP sensor due to lack of color array.  And it’s still the king of high ISO in the Leica lineup.

But for me, a Monochrom is much more about shooting experience/mindset and workflow (color lens filters vs use of color channels in post) than technical specs.

All fine choices.  Enjoy.

Jeff

[jakontil]

I chose the silver M11 just for the shake of its heft n brass feels, and happily with the 36mpx to keep the file size just fine

im still keeping my black paint R too and the only advantage i felt over the M11 was its battery life and usb c port, and i might feel biased, but the more flushed screen on M11 felt sleeker

[geotrupede]

regarding noise, I must agree, initial tests... not that impressed, but will I will continue with testing.

the MM10 might have been a better choice? (I think it might have, just could not justify)

I like really sharp details, whereas the M11 seems to eradicate noise with a very aggressive reduction algorithm. basically it looks like 3200 is borderline... i was used to the SL2S where you can go up to 12500 without thinking... mmm.

But M11 is still cool so not yet disappointed

G.

 

[hdmesa]

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12 hours ago, geotrupede said:

regarding noise, I must agree, initial tests... not that impressed, but will I will continue with testing.

the MM10 might have been a better choice? (I think it might have, just could not justify)

I like really sharp details, whereas the M11 seems to eradicate noise with a very aggressive reduction algorithm. basically it looks like 3200 is borderline... i was used to the SL2S where you can go up to 12500 without thinking... mmm.

But M11 is still cool so not yet disappointed

G.

 

If you resize the M11 images down to SL2-S pixel dimensions, the noise difference is less dramatic.

[SrMi]

13 hours ago, geotrupede said:

regarding noise, I must agree, initial tests... not that impressed, but will I will continue with testing.

the MM10 might have been a better choice? (I think it might have, just could not justify)

I like really sharp details, whereas the M11 seems to eradicate noise with a very aggressive reduction algorithm. basically it looks like 3200 is borderline... i was used to the SL2S where you can go up to 12500 without thinking... mmm.

But M11 is still cool so not yet disappointed

G.

 

I do not see any indication that M11 is using noise reduction in RAWs. P2P is pretty good in detecting any in-camera NR for raw files and none were measured (chart). Why do you think that M11 has a very aggressive NR? Are you talking about JPGs?

[geotrupede]

 I was talking about capture one, the sliders are full on, if disabled then the images are pretty noisy. I mean, compared to M9P is incredible, but I think the SL2s is significantly better.  The jpg are ok-ish, perhaps the sharpness filter is a tad too much for me. but I use raw so not an issue.

I managed to create a couple of nice (all relative, to me of course) profiles which make editing more pleasing, so I am slowly getting used to it.

Certain is that, ignoring all the new features of the M11, the MM10 could have been a more satisfying option, but of course only BW, which is great but not practical in this particular case [I have a MM9]

Anyway, any advice on how to:

reduce blur (is it the shutter? is it the noise reduction? is it the lens?)

increase impression of resolution (like M9 style, when you look at the image you can see the pixel defining small details)

reduce noise (what is the limit of ISO to get a decent image in your experience?)

G>

 

[geotrupede]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

If you resize the M11 images down to SL2-S pixel dimensions, the noise difference is less dramatic.

Actually I have tried with the DNG-S which should behave even better but empirical evidence (little of admittedly) suggests it is the same thing as the DNG-L.

Somehow scaling out of camera may be better?

What is your experience with this? Would be great to exchange notes.

From what I was reading all over, I was hoping for the little files to be stellar, with 'wider dynamic range' and 'less noise'. Dynamic range is incredible, with all the formats, truly.  But noise... a lot more of it that i expected 

G.

 

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

Actually I have tried with the DNG-S which should behave even better but empirical evidence (little of admittedly) suggests it is the same thing as the DNG-L.

Somehow scaling out of camera may be better?

What is your experience with this? Would be great to exchange notes.

From what I was reading all over, I was hoping for the little files to be stellar, with 'wider dynamic range' and 'less noise'. Dynamic range is incredible, with all the formats, truly.  But noise... a lot more of it that i expected 

G.

 

Are you using C1 or LR? I find C1 defaults better with regard to controlling noise without destroying sharpness.

SL2-S is hard to beat for high ISO without moving to a Monochrom.

I haven’t used the smaller DNG output much, but generally I’ve found that scaling down the images in PS gives a better result with regard to sharpness and resolving power. Have not tested binned versus resizing for noise at high ISOs.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Are you using C1 or LR? I find C1 defaults better with regard to controlling noise without destroying sharpness.

 

C1… post #9

Jeff

[geotrupede]

Just found a video on youtube which tests 60 vs 36 vs 18 and the conclusion is 60 in camera. any reduction outside.

this findings is  disappointing as the M11' appeal, for me at least, was this ability to have better AND smaller files... apparently not so. 

M10R then becomes an interesting option as you would have 40MP files, and similar quality, or of course the MM10. All for less.

We have all these options...  science fiction compared to the M8/M9 era. And all are so good... hard to pick one and once committed not to have doubts!

G>

 

 

[Kwesi]

2 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

Just found a video on youtube which tests 60 vs 36 vs 18 and the conclusion is 60 in camera. any reduction outside.

this findings is  disappointing as the M11' appeal, for me at least, was this ability to have better AND smaller files... apparently not so. 

M10R then becomes an interesting option as you would have 40MP files, and similar quality, or of course the MM10. All for less.

We have all these options...  science fiction compared to the M8/M9 era. And all are so good... hard to pick one and once committed not to have doubts!

G>

 

 

Sounds like the M11 is not meeting your your workflow expectations with regards to color noise. If it’s not too late, perhaps consider returning the camera. 

[geotrupede]

Just now, Kwesi said:

Sounds like the M11 is not meeting your your workflow expectations with regards to color noise. If it’s not too late, perhaps consider returning the camera. 

I have been thinking about this, but I have already registered warranty, etc. Not sure it is an available option without major arguments.

Let's see how to get used to it, I am sure that since many of you are happy there has to be something I am missing or doing wrong.  But as mentioned, so many options, so confusing/// in the old days, 6MP > 18MP, no brainer.  Now it is a mess with 40vs 60/36/18 vs 24, etc/ etc/

I will try to use flash and mimic my MM1 stuff (here for reference), then let's see how it goes.

G.

 

[Kwesi]

On the other hand, 

this was shot at 6400, zone focused at f4 at 1/250 then pushed a third of a stop in Lightroom with zero noise reduction. M11 L-DNG

Coming from the M240 and M10 I actually like the graininess of the M11 noise. 
image still needs work but I thought you might like to see something at 6400 from another user. 

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[geotrupede]

8 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

On the other hand, 

this was shot at 6400, zone focused at f4 at 1/250 then pushed a third of a stop in Lightroom with zero noise reduction. M11 L-DNG

Coming from the M240 and M10 I actually like the graininess of the M11 noise. 
image still needs work but I thought you might like to see something at 6400 from another user. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

whoa! nice shot and very little noise that I can see...  I ought to be doing something wrong. Time to read the manual! Will keep experimenting and will post some shots later in the week.

thanks!

[Kwesi]

24 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

I have been thinking about this, but I have already registered warranty, etc. Not sure it is an available option without major arguments.

Let's see how to get used to it, I am sure that since many of you are happy there has to be something I am missing or doing wrong.  But as mentioned, so many options, so confusing/// in the old days, 6MP > 18MP, no brainer.  Now it is a mess with 40vs 60/36/18 vs 24, etc/ etc/

I will try to use flash and mimic my MM1 stuff (here for reference), then let's see how it goes.

G.

 

Wow! Really strong images on your site. I like the grit and I can see why you are wondering wether a monochrom would have been a better choice. I’m seeing the same kind of grain in the woman in my foreground image as I see in your link so perhaps work with the M11 until the M11 monochrom is released in about a year.  I definitely wouldn’t trade it in for a color M. 

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

whoa! nice shot and very little noise that I can see...  I ought to be doing something wrong. Time to read the manual! Will keep experimenting and will post some shots later in the week.

thanks!

Since you liked the high ISO images shot in brighter light, it may be the M11 sensor read noise you find objectionable. The only thing you can do to overcome that is get a wider aperture lens.

Edited July 28, 2022 by hdmesa

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[geotrupede]

Ha ha...   M11 mono 😉 ... need some significant saving for that...  next camera will be in 10 years (so we all say until it happens... ).

I have created a C1 profile for the M11 to do BW but results are far from MM1 look... on that I use a yellow filter and cannot seem to be able to replicate. since I use a very strong contrast and S curve, when I start to mess around with the blue channel the image breaks badly. the SL2S manages just about, but grain is colossal, which is acceptable as it looks like an old grainy film (as opposed to the fine grain of the MM). 

On the M11 I have not yet succeeded in replicating the same look, so used a lesser contrast and S curve, but learning the limits. The main difference being the contrast of sky vs face and skin.

For colour images (typically family), I noticed the skin tones are a bit too orange, what I would associate with a CMOS from the past time, but it is summer and everybody in the family has a tan so not sur.. perhaps we are orange like that 😉 

What I really like about the M11 is the weight of the black model and the grippy finish, really really cool. Ashamed to admit, but I have taped the red dot so it feels/ looks like a P/MM. 

G>