Help me choose the right M (M6/M6TTL/M7/MP)

[krylovsk]

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I’ve been shooting with CL for about two years now and want to add a dependable body to shoot more film.

After reading a lot of wisdom on this forum and elsewhere, I still feel undecided so I thought I’d ask for help.

I have a Canon P and I found the lack of built-in meter to be too limiting for regular use, so I’m currently looking at M6 classic, M6 TTL, M7, and maybe MP. Ignoring the budget for a moment, my agony of choice is down to the following issues:

Shutter dial: I feel like the classic dial with the shutter speed decreasing when rotated clockwise is more natural to me. It’s how it goes on my other film cameras and how I mentally imagine changing it with my index finger, but I never used an M camera. I read that people are struggling with that because the shutter dial is small, recessed, and has high resistance.

Is it a deal breaker? Has someone switched to TTL/M7 because of this issue?

Auto-exposure: I shoot in aperture priority with pretty much all of my cameras, but I only shoot B&W film and with CL I adapted to meter only when the light conditions are changing. Unfortunately indoors I find that I have to adjust exposure very often and indoor family photography is where I want to shoot more with the new camera.

Any tips from M6/MP and meter-less users? I don’t mind the challenge and learning, but I don’t know where to get started to get better at guessing exposure.

Weight: I find weight to be an important factor for me to pick up the camera (e.g. Canon P mostly stays at home). The difference on paper is pretty small, but some say M6 TTL and M7 are noticeably heavier. 

As you probably figured, I incline towards M6 classic - mostly due to the shutter dial direction, smaller weight, and a bit more future-proofness. It doesn’t look like Leica will release another AE film camera, so I better learn working in manual mode. It’s also 30% cheaper than the M7, which I can put aside for the 35 summicron.

Any advice from someone who had to make a similar choice? 

Edited July 6, 2022 by krylovsk

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[a.noctilux]

Welcome @krylovsk

I can not help much.

First thing first as they say...

Go to a Leica Dealer with your CL, ask to hold one Leica M either one in stock.

In real life, you would see if M can replace your CL.

Or maybe someone can lend you his/her Leica M to see how the handling could be.

Your choice reasons are mainly description of non-M user, each M can give the "same" results, and (for me) the most "manual setting"

M is the best "freedom M ...", I began with M4 some decades ago, never use M7 *, now I use the last "all manual M" after using for so long M6/MP.

The best friend to an "film M" is film of course and  ... handheld meter if required.

 

Reading your description, this is my only advice.

 

* still use from time to time Minolta CLE and Konica Hexar RF (mainly in manual settings).

[andrew01]

I have had both M6 and M6TTL the difference in weight is insignificant (40g).  The lens you choose will have a far greater influence on how much the camera weighs.  The M6 classic has the exact proportions of the Wetzlar M bodies, whereas M6TTL and M7 are a smidgeon taller to accommodate additional circuitry.

Some people argue that the three dot meter in the TTL is better, but I don’t see it as much of an issue.  The metering arrows in the M6 change their brightness depending on how centered your exposure settings are.  If you are half a stop out one led will be dimmer than the other.  This makes it really intuitive to dial in the exposure perfectly (assuming you have pointed the metering spot in the right place).

I also prefer the shutter dial on the M6, mainly because it is more true to the Wetzlar bodies.

 

 

 

 

[earleygallery]

1 hour ago, krylovsk said:

I’ve been shooting with CL for about two years now and want to add a dependable body to shoot more film.

After reading a lot of wisdom on this forum and elsewhere, I still feel undecided so I thought I’d ask for help.

I have a Canon P and I found the lack of built-in meter to be too limiting for regular use, so I’m currently looking at M6 classic, M6 TTL, M7, and maybe MP. Ignoring the budget for a moment, my agony of choice is down to the following issues:

Shutter dial: I feel like the classic dial with the shutter speed decreasing when rotated clockwise is more natural to me. It’s how it goes on my other film cameras and how I mentally imagine changing it with my index finger, but I never used an M camera. I read that people are struggling with that because the shutter dial is small, recessed, and has high resistance.

Is it a deal breaker? Has someone switched to TTL/M7 because of this issue?

Auto-exposure: I shoot in aperture priority with pretty much all of my cameras, but I only shoot B&W film and with CL I adapted to meter only when the light conditions are changing. Unfortunately indoors I find that I have to adjust exposure very often and indoor family photography is where I want to shoot more with the new camera.

Any tips from M6/MP and meter-less users? I don’t mind the challenge and learning, but I don’t know where to get started to get better at guessing exposure.

Weight: I find weight to be an important factor for me to pick up the camera (e.g. Canon P mostly stays at home). The difference on paper is pretty small, but some say M6 TTL and M7 are noticeably heavier. 

As you probably figured, I incline towards M6 classic - mostly due to the shutter dial direction, smaller weight, and a bit more future-proofness. It doesn’t look like Leica will release another AE film camera, so I better learn working in manual mode. It’s also 30% cheaper than the M7, which I can put aside for the 35 summicron.

Any advice from someone who had to make a similar choice? 

Hi,

You have ruled out a meterless M at the start of your post so why then ask about 'learning'? Stick to what you want.

Out of the 3 options I would choose the M6, unless you really need TTL flash metering (the M6 has TTL metering) or need AE (the M7).

The shutter dial is - to me - a non issue. You will just get used to it.

There are other options however. A Leica M5 or perhaps one of the Voigtlander M mount bodies.

[madNbad]

With the ever increasing price for a M6, spend a little more and get the MP. Better viewfinder, brass top plate and updated shutter seals. The price difference isn't as great as it was a few years ago and there are used ones on the market. Think of it as an M6, only better!

[Ornello]

Don't forget  the M5! I always loved it!

[Alan Siqueira]

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I have a TTL, is a great model. I'm from Brazil and here is so hard to get a leica that I just bought the first I find. I never used a flash. The larger dial is very ergonomic to use with the eye still on the viewfinder. But I have to admit that  you can live perfect without the larger dial and the 3 point lightmeter.

[spydrxx]

I had a Canon P and a Leica M6TTL. To me, both felt heavy and large compared to the M4 I owned for about 40 years (I haven't checked specs to validate their relative weights). These days I shoot about 50% aperture priority and 50% manual, regardless of whether or not a camera has built in metering capabilities. While a built in meter seems convenient, IMHO I'd have greater confidence in a handheld meter, although I often rely on a variation of the sunny 16 rule which I've developed by trial and error over the years.

[krylovsk]

5 hours ago, madNbad said:

With the ever increasing price for a M6, spend a little more and get the MP. Better viewfinder, brass top plate and updated shutter seals. The price difference isn't as great as it was a few years ago and there are used ones on the market. Think of it as an M6, only better!

I thought about that too, but a used MP is about the same price as M7. It appears that the viewfinder issue for .72 is largely exaggerated and if it will bother me I could get that upgraded and still save some cash.
The top plate is a good argument, but it’s difficult to justify the price difference.
Besides, as I understand there are advantages of the zinc plate being more robust and resistant to bumps, which happens to my cameras quite a bit. I want a camera that I won’t hesitate to take anywhere, and both price and robustness have a contribution to that.

[krylovsk]

1 hour ago, spydrxx said:

I had a Canon P and a Leica M6TTL. To me, both felt heavy and large compared to the M4 I owned for about 40 years (I haven't checked specs to validate their relative weights). These days I shoot about 50% aperture priority and 50% manual, regardless of whether or not a camera has built in metering capabilities. While a built in meter seems convenient, IMHO I'd have greater confidence in a handheld meter, although I often rely on a variation of the sunny 16 rule which I've developed by trial and error over the years.

Indeed a handheld meter is always a greater confidence. If I’m shooting posed portraits I come to the subject and take a couple of measurements with incident meter. Since it’s slow anyway, I might as well use a MF camera for this.

What I’m after here is documentary style photography where subjects move and light conditions change accordingly fast. Keeping up with the focus alone is already a challenge since you often shoot with a wide aperture (indoors).

[krylovsk]

5 hours ago, Ornello said:

Don't forget  the M5! I always loved it!

Apologies to the M5 lovers for dismissing it, I just didn’t want to blow up the initial post. 

I did consider M5, but I feel like its aesthetics are not for me and that factor turns out to be surprisingly important. I already have CL and I intend to keep it as a second camera. It’s not winning a beauty contest for me, but for the price I can swallow that.

With M5 we talk about pretty much the same price range as M6, but a similar to CL “features” being an older camera with mercury batteries and a dead-end in the evolution. I would rather follow the mainstream path that Leica decided to go with their film cameras, even if I might not agree with their decisions.

Since we talk about odd balls, I also considered Zeiss Ikon ZM. It’s the ideal camera on paper, but it’s aesthetics are unimpressive for me to try it in person.

[krylovsk]

9 hours ago, earleygallery said:

You have ruled out a meterless M at the start of your post so why then ask about 'learning'? Stick to what you want.

I want the meter to be a safety net and learn not to use it for every second frame, because it will be slowing me down. Or at least dialing in the exposure in the right ballpark before I bring the camera to my eyes.

Edited July 7, 2022 by krylovsk

[andrew01]

2 hours ago, spydrxx said:

I had a Canon P and a Leica M6TTL. To me, both felt heavy and large compared to the M4 I owned for about 40 years (I haven't checked specs to validate their relative weights). These days I shoot about 50% aperture priority and 50% manual, regardless of whether or not a camera has built in metering capabilities. While a built in meter seems convenient, IMHO I'd have greater confidence in a handheld meter, although I often rely on a variation of the sunny 16 rule which I've developed by trial and error over the years.

 

Leica M4 and M6 weigh 560g.  Leica M6 TTL weighs 600g.  A roll of film weighs about 20g.

[a.noctilux]

I can add this ...

Experiences and experimentations (scientific way or artistic way 😌).

We have two paths to follow for new Leica M user :

- long one : ask for opinions and give other's opinions (different of course) a try, this path can be long/trying so many

- shorter one, follow the "feeling" of oneself, try one M with the "right" lens, then you know that particular M can (or not) do it.

 

The questions would answer themselves while really use the gear.

[MarkP]

14 hours ago, krylovsk said:

I shoot in aperture priority with pretty much all of my cameras

What I’m after here is documentary style photography where subjects move and light conditions change accordingly fast

 

I think this answers your question as this is your style of shooting - M7.

I have a CL, M3 (newly acquired) and a late production M7, all of which get a reasonable amount of use. However, the M7 still gets used the most as it is the most versatile of the lot with the meter, AE, and a wider selection of framelines. 

I often leave mine on Auto exposure, sometimes just to let the camera make a point and shoot exposure decision, but more-so in more complex lighting situations (where I'm not using a hand-held meter) it allows me to survey the scene and light meter readings through the viewfinder, decide what exposure I want, lock it in, recompose and shoot. It's just faster than then having to manually adjust the shutter-speed. 

The M7 is a fabulous camera, I love using it, and I have never had a problem with it.

I can't recall ever having had an issue with VF flare.

I'd always thought that it would really bother me going to an M camera with a smaller shutter-speed dial that moved in the opposite direction to the the M7 and digital M cameras. In practice it has proven to be a non-issue.

There is too much quibbling about weight differences between cameras and I don't think it would offset compromising your primary metering method.  I agree with the earlier comment that the choice of lens will have more impact on weight and bulk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by MarkP

[kivis]

I have owned all the M film cameras and I wish them all back. But I always have come back to a meterless rig. A couple of years ago, I treated myself to a new M-A. Best decision I ever made.

[krylovsk]

55 minutes ago, MarkP said:

I think this answers your question as this is your style of shooting - M7.

I have a CL, M3 (newly acquired) and a late production M7, all of which get a reasonable amount of use. However, the M7 still gets used the most as it is the most versatile of the lot with the meter, AE, and a wider selection of framelines. 

I often leave mine on Auto exposure, sometimes just to let the camera make a point and shoot exposure decision, but more-so in more complex lighting situations (where I'm not using a hand-held meter) it allows me to survey the scene and light meter readings through the viewfinder, decide what exposure I want, lock it in, recompose and shoot. It's just faster than then having to manually adjust the shutter-speed. 

The M7 is a fabulous camera, I love using it, and I have never had a problem with it.

I can't recall ever having had an issue with VF flare.

I'd always thought that it would really bother me going to an M camera with a smaller shutter-speed dial that moved in the opposite direction to the the M7 and digital M cameras. In practice it has proven to be a non-issue.

There is too much quibbling about weight differences between cameras and I don't think it would offset compromising your primary metering method.  I agree with the earlier comment that the choice of lens will have more impact on weight and bulk.

Thanks for a very practical advice. The lack of AE is what makes me doubt the M6 path the most. I’m justifying it by the fact that it’s unlikely that Leica (or anyone else really) will make another film M body with AE and I really like to invest into learning a particular type of camera and shooting style, which takes years to master.

Why torture yourself and make the learning curve of shooting with rangefinder steeper than it already is? I guess it’s an unpopular opinion in the community and why Leica decided to abandon the line. No pain - no gain? 

Edited July 7, 2022 by krylovsk

[a.noctilux]

27 minutes ago, krylovsk said:

I guess it’s an unpopular opinion in the community and why Leica decided to abandon the line. No pain - no gain? 

Which line ?

M system ?

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[krylovsk]

1 minute ago, a.noctilux said:

Which line ?

M system ?

M film cameras with AE. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by krylovsk

[a.noctilux]

8 minutes ago, krylovsk said:

M film cameras with AE. 

I'm happy when I need with Hexar RF or CLE, never use M7.

Never experience with these "electronic" the infamous "bomb".

They work as new, for decades.

If you can find one, try Minolta CLE 😉.

May use 28/40/90 only though.

Edited July 7, 2022 by a.noctilux