Shutter lag comments from Jesko von Oeynhausen

[Surge]

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Hesitation with the continuous drive mode on the M10 was also noted: 

@Derbyshire Man why not try “slow continuous drive mode” on the M11?

Edited January 19 by Surge

[Surge]

I did my own test to measure shutter lag on the M11-P with the latest firmware and my M10M and M10. 

There is no noticeable lag at all among the three cameras. I used manual shutter and ISO.

What is noticeable is the faster processing of the M11 - the preview image is displayed considerably faster on the M11-P. This will in fact speed shooting, as you are not waiting as long for the image you just took to be displayed. So “effective lag” is shorter with the M11.

Edited January 19 by Surge

[MaxGor]

While it's interesting to see photographers attribute issues to their equipment, I'm curious - does this kind of technical excuse actually prevent museums from acquiring your work?

[Derbyshire Man]

3 hours ago, MaxGor said:

While it's interesting to see photographers attribute issues to their equipment, I'm curious - does this kind of technical excuse actually prevent museums from acquiring your work?

Hilarious. It would indeed, HCB's bloke jumping puddle picture would have had the guy exited stage right and would have been HCB's picture of puddle. Of course if it's a picture of a flower, the museum is still in luck.

[DadDadDaddyo]

... we can't really tell from the picture exactly when HCB clicked the shutter.

One learns to work with stuff. Over time, I've learned when to squeeze the shutter to catch people in mid-stride with one foot going forward, instead of looking as if they're about to trip. 

But if memory serves, I figured that out at least several models ago, which suggests to me that things haven't gotten worse, because what I figured out long ago still works today with the M11 and M11M...

[charlesphoto99]

4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Hilarious. It would indeed, HCB's bloke jumping puddle picture would have had the guy exited stage right and would have been HCB's picture of puddle. Of course if it's a picture of a flower, the museum is still in luck.

Actually, your response is hilarious (or ridiculous, you choose). HCB wasn't rolling with 'continuous' or 'single shot' mode, or a motor drive of any kind when he took that shot. He knew the camera he was working with, and had one chance before he would have had to hand wind the film on by knob - this shot was early in his career, well before the M came on the scene so taken with a I or II model (photo is 1932, the year the II came out). 

[Surge]

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Isn’t Live View shooting in any case faster with the M11 vs all previous digital Leica M, since the shutter no longer needs to close momentarily to read the light meter?

[Derbyshire Man]

13 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Actually, your response is hilarious (or ridiculous, you choose). HCB wasn't rolling with 'continuous' or 'single shot' mode, or a motor drive of any kind when he took that shot. He knew the camera he was working with, and had one chance before he would have had to hand wind the film on by knob - this shot was early in his career, well before the M came on the scene so taken with a I or II model (photo is 1932, the year the II came out). 

I don't know why you are so regularly aggressive but it's really not needed.

My point is that there is no interpretation between a mechanical shutter press and a firmware based fly by wire one. And I find that the time taken (and therefore movement of the subject) with an M11 seems significant compared to a 5dmk4 or film camera.

Edited January 20 by Derbyshire Man

[charlesphoto99]

35 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I don't know why you are so regularly aggressive but it's really not needed.

My point is that there is no interpretation between a mechanical shutter press and a firmware based fly by wire one. And I find that the time taken (and therefore movement of the subject) with an M11 seems significant compared to a 5dmk4 or film camera.

I wasn't saying that you are wrong on your original point - I'm sure there is a significant difference between the M11 and Canon that you find. I know I sometimes have issues in single shot with the M10-R that should probably be better, as well as the buffer running out, not to mention the ever increasing times from start up/standby since the M9. But then you spun it out to HCB for some reason with what I saw as a poor analogy (or I misunderstood as film cameras had not come up). Sorry if you find my logic aggressive - I'll tone it down for the future. My bad. Mods are free to remove my post(s). That doesn't upset me. 

I guess then the suggestion, or take away would be, don't use an M11 if you at all need to capture any sort of movement at the decisive moment? 

[MaxGor]

On 1/19/2025 at 8:49 PM, Derbyshire Man said:

Hilarious. It would indeed, HCB's bloke jumping puddle picture would have had the guy exited stage right and would have been HCB's picture of puddle. Of course if it's a picture of a flower, the museum is still in luck.

Do you think Henri Cartier-Bresson used a more sophisticated camera to create that renowned photograph?

[MaxGor]

6 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I guess then the suggestion, or take away would be, don't use an M11 if you at all need to capture any sort of movement at the decisive moment? 

My M-11P clicks pretty nicely. 

 

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Edited January 20 by MaxGor
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[Derbyshire Man]

7 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I wasn't saying that you are wrong on your original point - I'm sure there is a significant difference between the M11 and Canon that you find. I know I sometimes have issues in single shot with the M10-R that should probably be better, as well as the buffer running out, not to mention the ever increasing times from start up/standby since the M9. But then you spun it out to HCB for some reason with what I saw as a poor analogy (or I misunderstood as film cameras had not come up). Sorry if you find my logic aggressive - I'll tone it down for the future. My bad. Mods are free to remove my post(s). That doesn't upset me. 

I guess then the suggestion, or take away would be, don't use an M11 if you at all need to capture any sort of movement at the decisive moment? 

Thanks for the decency!

[Derbyshire Man]

59 minutes ago, MaxGor said:

Do you think Henri Cartier-Bresson used a more sophisticated camera to create that renowned photograph?

It's just that there's a direct connection between the mechanical button and the mechanical shutter and in an M11 there isn't, it goes through the CPU so potential polling and processing delay. It shouldn't be bad as I've read its 23ms or something but in my testing of live moving people they've moved much farther than I would expect at 23ms so one needs to press the shutter a difficult to judge moment before the precise point. Many shots are static or non critical but not all. It's not that I can't manage it. You'll need to zoom in!

 

https://flic.kr/p/2pBEPWg

[Stevejack]

I looked up some numbers to get a sense of it. Healthy adults have a reaction time of around 200ms, There is a ~20ms reaction time difference between a 20 year old and a 40 year old, increasing with age. If you're pushing 50, you're at closer to a 60ms difference (or more). 

An M3 has ~ 10-20ms shutter lag, with something like the M11 being roughly double that.

If you're trying to photograph a runner in a certain position, let's say their foot touching the ground.... average ground contact time for their foot would be around 300ms. So regardless of camera you've got 'enough' time to get the shot even if you're not brilliant at anticipating. 

There's a much larger difference when using live view.. It's extremely easy to miss a shot when using the Visoflex versus the OVF on the M11, but that's another matter. 

 

 

 

[Derbyshire Man]

9 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I looked up some numbers to get a sense of it. Healthy adults have a reaction time of around 200ms, There is a ~20ms reaction time difference between a 20 year old and a 40 year old, increasing with age. If you're pushing 50, you're at closer to a 60ms difference (or more). 

An M3 has ~ 10-20ms shutter lag, with something like the M11 being roughly double that.

If you're trying to photograph a runner in a certain position, let's say their foot touching the ground.... average ground contact time for their foot would be around 300ms. So regardless of camera you've got 'enough' time to get the shot even if you're not brilliant at anticipating. 

There's a much larger difference when using live view.. It's extremely easy to miss a shot when using the Visoflex versus the OVF on the M11, but that's another matter. 

 

 

 

Thanks very much for that, helpful. That last point is I suppose the reason for things like the R5mk2 providing pre-capture, a feature overcoming a failing!