Totally feeling sad and heart broken. Bye Leica...

[beewee]

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Speaking as someone who purchased an M10 new within 6 months of initial release many years ago, the camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder. Knowing how long Leica takes to service cameras, I put off dealing with servicing by using the EVF for a year and then finally sent the camera in through my local Leica authorized retailer. 6 months later without a single update, it was determined that my camera never made it to Wetzlar and was lost in transit. How’s that for service? It was only after 6 months of sending it off that my local camera store was able to press Leica service enough to look into the issue and realize the camera never made it. This is unacceptable for the fact that (1) my new camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder and (2) it took 6 months for Leica to get off its butt and realize the camera never made it. Also, I live in a G7 country. How’s that for service?

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[otto.f]

5 hours ago, BernardC said:

So now there's a "massive need for service" and poor quality control? You've jumped into myth making. The SL and M cameras aren't particularly unreliable, and modern M cameras don't require the regular service and fine adjustment that they used to. Sure, we see the occasional thread like this one, but that happens any brand forum.

The problem is that you are inventing a false issue that obscures a very real issue: slow service turnaround, poor communication, and lack of available loaners outside of Europe. How can this real problem get fixed if you are inventing a different problem? We all know that the road to a solution starts with identifying the issue, not with misdirection and confusion.

And what's all this about "in this price range?" I have a friend who is a Mercedes mechanic, and he jokes about naive customers who believe that their car shouldn't need service because it is "expensive." That's not how things work. Besides, an SL system isn't more expensive than a top-line Canon, Nikon, or Sony system if you get their best lenses and necessary accessories. Like cars, these things cost more than what you remember paying 10 years ago.

The good news is that Leica does provide service, unlike Sony or Nikon. Sure, Canon is the gold standard for pro gear, but they have a firm cut-off for what they'll fix, and they require you to own a lot of their high-end gear before selling you a subscription to their high-tier service.

Sony's poor service is legendary. They may be able to replace an item that fails during the warranty period, but you are on your own after that. Nikon no longer sells parts to service centres (the very shops that "brought them to the dance", as it were), so you are at their mercy as well.

I don't know if you have experience with CLA at Wetzlar, but the end of last year the turnaround time there was 3 months at least. It is not only a problem in New Jersey. 

[lx1713]

I wonder how much of the problems are aggravated by Covid conditions. If the situation forced a loss of skilled workmen and restricted work environment, that would throw a spanner into the works.

I would try to be patient because as a professional, my own operations tend to be self contained in each area, it's less likely to be impacted except of course like the OP equipment  failures on an overwhelming scale. As work scales up locally, I have been encountering previously highly professional workers really off their previous pace and rhythm. Sometimes the fault is my own because with restrictions, established routines have to be changed and required steps are lost in new procedures.

This is not to excuse but to urge caution and patience, to communicate with graciousness. Some issues are too big to ignore but it helps the other party if we remain calm. On the other hand it's hard to remain calm when there's repeated aggravations. So it's a challenging time for many during this time.

[lx1713]

On 6/22/2022 at 1:12 AM, Darthaddie said:

Furthermore, I have been a manual shooter most of my carrier and bells and whistles don't matter. Having shot more than 300 weddings solely on manual focus lenses, I don't care much about fancy options on my camera. The leaner the better. That's why I loved my Leica. 

Hi Darthaddie,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Just wondering about your change in work style. in post #1 you work solely with manual lenses. And in post #3 below you have become fond of Sony's AF but complained about Leica manual lenses' AF performance. There's a substantial disconnect in logic here.

Voiglander and Leica M lenses do have a problem with autofocus.

 

On 6/22/2022 at 1:50 AM, Darthaddie said:

Thanks. I feel bad but I’ll get over it. For what it’s worth, for weddings, I probably won’t use anything else than the A1 and successors. The AF is freaking unbelievable. I pick up the camera and there’s already a person locked on. I was able to capture some moments in my last 2 weddings which were not possible with my Leica. Plus my Sony battery gives me over 1500 shots with continuous AF all day. I did a 10 hour wedding with just 2 batteries. 
 

There was always this mental anxiety with the Leica and the couple walking in to the reception in backlit situations. I always missed 80% of the shots due to the auto focus not working. Still managed to get useable shots every time. The Sony nails 100% of the shots and doesn’t even hunt. 
 

my love for Leica is still gonna be an ongoing pain. Lol. 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by lx1713
Shorten the reply

[beewee]

2 hours ago, lx1713 said:

I wonder how much of the problems are aggravated by Covid conditions. If the situation forced a loss of skilled workmen and restricted work environment, that would throw a spanner into the works.

I would try to be patient because as a professional, my own operations tend to be self contained in each area, it's less likely to be impacted except of course like the OP equipment  failures on an overwhelming scale. As work scales up locally, I have been encountering previously highly professional workers really off their previous pace and rhythm. Sometimes the fault is my own because with restrictions, established routines have to be changed and required steps are lost in new procedures.

This is not to excuse but to urge caution and patience, to communicate with graciousness. Some issues are too big to ignore but it helps the other party if we remain calm. On the other hand it's hard to remain calm when there's repeated aggravations. So it's a challenging time for many during this time.

See my post above (#83). It was like 4 years ago. Service has always been terrible. Covid has nothing to do with it.

[otto.f]

5 hours ago, lx1713 said:

This is not to excuse but to urge caution and patience, to communicate with graciousness.

If covid is the cause, it would have been nice if Leica had started with gracious communication. LFI could also have been an appropriate platform for this. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by otto.f

[otto.f]

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13 hours ago, beewee said:

Speaking as someone who purchased an M10 new within 6 months of initial release many years ago, the camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder. Knowing how long Leica takes to service cameras, I put off dealing with servicing by using the EVF for a year and then finally sent the camera in through my local Leica authorized retailer. 6 months later without a single update, it was determined that my camera never made it to Wetzlar and was lost in transit. How’s that for service? It was only after 6 months of sending it off that my local camera store was able to press Leica service enough to look into the issue and realize the camera never made it. This is unacceptable for the fact that (1) my new camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder and (2) it took 6 months for Leica to get off its butt and realize the camera never made it. Also, I live in a G7 country. How’s that for service?

I have similar recent experiences with my M10R that was held at the distributor, when I contacted Leica after 3 months they said they never heard about the camera, etc. It is now fixed by a Dutch repair service on behalf of Leica for most of my lenses but not completely, whereas all my lenses were okay with my former M9. 

[becker]

one last cup of tea: Okay it does not matter if you are a pro ore an ama Otto F , because you have the choice and Leica is the amateurs choice - a minor of  pros would prefer a concept new, but old, double in price, not consistent delivering, color hassle , jpgs hassle, ultra slow and ultra expensive service. If there are alternatives.

Leica is too small to "win" against the big Japanese producers . In every aspect. Japanese makers sleep in their Laboratory outfits ( if they sleep ) this is some steps beyond....I buy a lot in Japan and the US, never any discussion , the customer is always right. Service is top. 

[Fotoklaus]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb beewee:

Speaking as someone who purchased an M10 new within 6 months of initial release many years ago, the camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder. Knowing how long Leica takes to service cameras, I put off dealing with servicing by using the EVF for a year and then finally sent the camera in through my local Leica authorized retailer. 6 months later without a single update, it was determined that my camera never made it to Wetzlar and was lost in transit. How’s that for service? It was only after 6 months of sending it off that my local camera store was able to press Leica service enough to look into the issue and realize the camera never made it. This is unacceptable for the fact that (1) my new camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder and (2) it took 6 months for Leica to get off its butt and realize the camera never made it. Also, I live in a G7 country. How’s that for service?

I sent older Zeiss Binoculars (early 80s) to the Zeiss Service early this year. You fill out a form online, get a free UPS- Parcel sticker and send it to them.

After a week I got a detailed list of what work is recommended with a cost estimate. If you don´t want to confirm that offer you get your binos sent back for free.

I chosed the service and got my binos back after two weeks, perfectly adjusted, cleaned inside and outside, new eyecups mounted with a new strap (this was for free).

The price was reasonable.

For another Bino i asked for new eyecups. I received them after one week for free.

That is what I call professional service.

And your M10 should not have left the factory with that issue, in my opinion.

[lx1713]

4 hours ago, beewee said:

See my post above (#83). It was like 4 years ago. Service has always been terrible. Covid has nothing to do with it.

 

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

If covid is the cause, it would have been nice if Leica had started with gracious communication. LFI could also have been an appropriate platform for this. 

Thanks, both. Yes, I agree, service should be much better. It's also about the delivered products. newly opened cameras and lenses should be pristine not faulty.

A few of my friends, amateurs, are very grieved with Leica's service too. Sometimes I feel that because Leica has dealt with so many users who barely touched their cameras much less understand that something is faulty, they have an elevated view of their products.

I had experienced Canon's service trajectory as a guinea pig for over 2 decades. Unfailingly polite, meticulous in fault checking, occasionally explaining the fault and sometimes given enough time serviced the item on the spot. I did have to send in my whole system twice a year to calibrate and check or repair. They would be out of whack in 6 months. Before I left Canon, their service center was a quiet place compared to 20+ years back. I do miss them. I have to say that when it comes to design faults, Canon will not say anything.

And I agree, I do wish Leica is more communicative. That might be a liability issue though.

[BernardC]

19 hours ago, otto.f said:

I don't know if you have experience with CLA at Wetzlar, but the end of last year the turnaround time there was 3 months at least. It is not only a problem in New Jersey. 

I sent a camera to Wetzlar via New Jersey at the end of last year, and the turnaround was just over one month. This included Christmas and New Year, which probably added a week to the total.

I don't doubt that others have had a worse experience, but it's not always 3 months.

[telyt]

21 hours ago, beewee said:

Speaking as someone who purchased an M10 new within 6 months of initial release many years ago, the camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder. Knowing how long Leica takes to service cameras, I put off dealing with servicing by using the EVF for a year and then finally sent the camera in through my local Leica authorized retailer. 6 months later without a single update, it was determined that my camera never made it to Wetzlar and was lost in transit. How’s that for service? It was only after 6 months of sending it off that my local camera store was able to press Leica service enough to look into the issue and realize the camera never made it. This is unacceptable for the fact that (1) my new camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder and (2) it took 6 months for Leica to get off its butt and realize the camera never made it. Also, I live in a G7 country. How’s that for service?

It sounds like Leica service hasn't changed at all since my last (and I do mean LAST) experience about 10 years ago.

When Leica service was at its best:

• downtime of 25% was common
• missing parts was common
• incomplete repair was common

The downtime meant I needed backups for the backups in order to have a usable camera on hand.  At Leica prices that was much too expensive.  Missing parts and incomplete repairs meant I was QC and at times I completed the repairs myself rather than subject my equipment to another round of Leica's "service".  In 2015 I began using Sony mirrorless but I was tempted by the SL and the glorious SL lenses (had a couple of extended loaners for evaluation).  There were many things I liked about the SL but the overriding factor was the thought of Leica's service and likely downtime.  The Sony system has been exemplary (now using the a1) and downtime has been zero.  YMMV.

[Herr Barnack]

21 hours ago, beewee said:

Speaking as someone who purchased an M10 new within 6 months of initial release many years ago, the camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder. Knowing how long Leica takes to service cameras, I put off dealing with servicing by using the EVF for a year and then finally sent the camera in through my local Leica authorized retailer. 6 months later without a single update, it was determined that my camera never made it to Wetzlar and was lost in transit. How’s that for service? It was only after 6 months of sending it off that my local camera store was able to press Leica service enough to look into the issue and realize the camera never made it. This is unacceptable for the fact that (1) my new camera arrived with a misaligned rangefinder and (2) it took 6 months for Leica to get off its butt and realize the camera never made it. Also, I live in a G7 country. How’s that for service?

When a buyer receives an M camera or lens that is new but is defective right out of the box, it should go straight back to the Leica dealer to be exchanged for a replacement that is not defective. 

Don't send it in to Leica for warranty service and get sucked into that black hole.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[cwcltd]

There are some good experiences to highlight; I had a faulty M 35/2 lens that was rattling and a totally bricked SL (601); the issues were dealt with swiftly and courteously by Leica Mayfair and both items were sent to Wetzlar, repaired and returned in a matter of weeks, the latter over the Christmas/New Year period.

[beewee]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

When a buyer receives an M camera or lens that is new but is defective right out of the box, it should go straight back to the Leica dealer to be exchanged for a replacement that is not defective. 

Don't send it in to Leica for warranty service and get sucked into that black hole.

 

 

Bear in mind that when I got my camera, there was a 6+ month waiting list. It took me 3 solid months of hard searching to get my M10 that was ordered from across the Atlantic because that was the only authorized Leica reseller with stock.

Edited June 27, 2022 by beewee

[otto.f]

What is the sense anyway to introduce camera’s and lenses to the consumer, which are not available for months and months. The APO Summicron 35 is still hardly available world-over. What kind of company is this!

[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

What is the sense anyway to introduce camera’s and lenses to the consumer, which are not available for months and months. The APO Summicron 35 is still hardly available world-over. What kind of company is this!

A great little company that make exiting product. they are exclusive for the few.

[Herr Barnack]

8 hours ago, otto.f said:

What is the sense anyway to introduce camera’s and lenses to the consumer, which are not available for months and months. The APO Summicron 35 is still hardly available world-over. What kind of company is this!

See post #8 here:  https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/332358-the-apo-35-summicron-is-like-a-ufo/#comment-4433278

 

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[Gavin Cato]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:38 PM, caissa said:

So the problems seem to be mainly for professionals who cannot afford to buy spare bodies,

That's rather presumptuous of you. When I had my first SL2 die, I went out and bought 2 x SL2-s's the next day. 

Then a SL2 then a SL2-s died, and so I pulled the plug when I had a possibility of 3 cameras simultaneously away for a expected 4 month turnaround.

I don't mind having money invested into redundant gear, but that was a bit extreme.

Wonderful, wonderful cameras when they work. I sincerely hope everyone has positive experiences and doesn't go through what I did.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Gavin Cato

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, otto.f said:

What is the sense anyway to introduce camera’s and lenses to the consumer, which are not available for months and months. The APO Summicron 35 is still hardly available world-over. What kind of company is this!

There's a recurring sarcastic thread on the Photo Rumors site about companies that can't deliver new products "due to unexpected demand." Every major brand has been affected by this.

In Leica's case, new products are in very high demand for the first year or so. One strategy is to pre-order based on rumours. The irony is that you'll wait just as long, but at least you'll be the first kid on your block with the new toy!

Things usually settle-down after a few months. Or maybe not. Have you tried ordering a car or major appliance recently? You'll be lucky to have it delivered this year.