Leica R 100mm Apo Macro Elmarit f/2.8 versus Sigma 105mm f/2.8 DG DN Macro Art Lens for Leica L

[John Smith]

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I plan to digitize a bunch of slides and negatives. The Leica S 120mm is probably the best performer, but too expensive for the project, especially adding in the adapter. So the choice is between the Leica and Sigma. Has anyone compared the two? I ran across this review about the Sigma:

Quote

I bought this for my SL2. It's not that good. The images are unremarkable, but then I am comparing those images to others I take using my shorter Leica lenses and my Telyt 135. In terms of macro capability it is nowhere near as sharp as the macro shots I take with my Leica Q. I would say the lens won't get much use as either a macro or telephoto.

So that got me wondering. 

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[frame-it]

i use the 90mm APO summicron M + macro adapter M on GFX for scanning 6x6 film, and sometimes the macro elmarit R 60mm as well

haven't tried the R100mm but it should be good

[charlesphoto99]

31 minutes ago, John Smith said:

I plan to digitize a bunch of slides and negatives. The Leica S 120mm is probably the best performer, but too expensive for the project, especially adding in the adapter. So the choice is between the Leica and Sigma. Has anyone compared the two? I ran across this review about the Sigma:

So that got me wondering. 

Either should be fine really. Keep in mind that you need to get to 1:1 for 35mm copying, and the 100mm APO needs the adapter, which is quite rare to find. As well, you'll be shooting a flat plane, at closest focus, and stopped down to at least f 11-22, so the Sigma should level up just fine - just might not have the same pop if say shooting other macro images (like flowers etc). I use a current Tamron 100mm with my D850 for copying, and it's an excellent performer for that. 

[John Smith]

59 minutes ago, frame-it said:

i use the 90mm APO summicron M + macro adapter M on GFX for scanning 6x6 film, and sometimes the macro elmarit R 60mm as well

haven't tried the R100mm but it should be good

I have an M macro adapter. But it looks like the closest it goes down is to a 1:2 ratio. Have to see if that works. Thanks for the suggestion. 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by John Smith

[caissa]

I use a “Balgen” from the R system and an enlarger lens (Apo rodagon). If you use it only for digitizing slides, then this is excellent and not as expensive as an M macro lens.

The R 100 is my favorite macro lens (so I never bought a sigma and so cannot directly compare quality). But an enlarger lens is more convenient for the slide job.

Edited June 9, 2022 by caissa

[Stuart Richardson]

I used to have the 100mm APO Elmarit R when I shot on the R. I also used it on the DMR and Nikon D3….10mp and 12mp. At the time it was the best lens I ever used. Looking at the mtf data sheet as compared to the Sigma, it seems like it is still a great lens, but time has marched on. The formula is at least 25 years old at this point. I think it is a great lens, but I suspect the Sigma will perform similarly to it in a technical way at this point, while also being a native af lens with 1 to 1 capability. 

[John Smith]

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5 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I used to have the 100mm APO Elmarit R when I shot on the R. I also used it on the DMR and Nikon D3….10mp and 12mp. At the time it was the best lens I ever used. Looking at the mtf data sheet as compared to the Sigma, it seems like it is still a great lens, but time has marched on. The formula is at least 25 years old at this point. I think it is a great lens, but I suspect the Sigma will perform similarly to it in a technical way at this point, while also being a native af lens with 1 to 1 capability. 

Good point. I'll have to try using an SL Summicron and see how it works. There is also the 60mm TL Macro. Not as many megapixels but might be worth looking into.

[Stuart Richardson]

I am not sure about the review you first posted. I would look for more reviews (including on E mount etc). Those words don’t line up with my experience of newer Sigma lenses or the MTF chart of the Sigma, which indicates a very good optical performance. 
I would definitely avoid the 60mm TL, as any difference in sharpness will be completely overtaken by the difference in resolution. Dropping from 47mp down to 20mp, before any cropping. I think the 100mm APO is a much better idea than the 60mm TL, as would be a 60mm R Macro. My bet is still on the Sigma as being the best of all of them for this work, however. 
The SL summicrons are extremely sharp, but they will not get you close enough, even if you are shooting 4x5. Maybe 8x10….

[Stuart Richardson]

PS, I would not shoot at f16 or f/22…diffraction sets in on the SL2 already around f8. I would experiment, but in my experience with the 120m APO Macro S is that 5.6 or f4 are sharpest…unless of course you are not plane parallel to the film or there is a huge amount of curl. I would also stick with the e-shutter and remote release. Vibration is the biggest thief of sharpness in camera scanning, more than lenses or diffraction if you have good lenses. 

[John Smith]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am not sure about the review you first posted. I would look for more reviews (including on E mount etc). Those words don’t line up with my experience of newer Sigma lenses or the MTF chart of the Sigma, which indicates a very good optical performance. 
I would definitely avoid the 60mm TL, as any difference in sharpness will be completely overtaken by the difference in resolution. Dropping from 47mp down to 20mp, before any cropping. I think the 100mm APO is a much better idea than the 60mm TL, as would be a 60mm R Macro. My bet is still on the Sigma as being the best of all of them for this work, however. 
The SL summicrons are extremely sharp, but they will not get you close enough, even if you are shooting 4x5. Maybe 8x10….

I looked through some more reviews and maybe that particular poster picked up a bad copy. Bought the Sigma along with a Novoflex rig. Should be good to go, I think.

Thanks for all the input.

[helged]

I love the 100mm APO-Elmarit-R, but it is hard to beat the new Sigma 70mm Macro Art. The former is sharp, it renders beautifully (for my eyes), but modern lenses are optically more perfect. And for slide scanning, optical perfection is - I assume - what to aim for... The only caveat I have with the modern Sigma lenses are that the wide angle lenses may be a little misaligned, showing softness towards the left or right side in the image wide open (and even stopped down to f5.6). For this reason I have returned a few copies of both Sigma 14mm f1.8 Art and Sigma 14-24 f2.8 Art. But when these wide angle lenses are correctly aligned (=a good copy), they are superb. I have only heard superlatives about the Sigma 70mm Macro Art.

[AZN]

FWIW I use the Nikon "AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8 D" for digitising my 35mm film:

https://www.dpreview.com/products/nikon/lenses/nikon_60_2p8d_micro

It gives you 1:1 and is plenty sharp at f5.6.  I use it manually focused and mount it via a lens-mount adapter.

I own the Apo-Macro-R 100mm and use it a fair bit. Any suggestion that it is obsolete due to the age of its design is… [redacted] 😃

I agree however that it isn't the optimal solution for slide copying. Sort of like using a yacht to drive to work…

 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, AZN said:

I own the Apo-Macro-R 100mm and use it a fair bit. Any suggestion that it is obsolete due to the age of its design is… [redacted] 😃

 

 

Hahaha, I did not say it was obsolete! I did say it was the best lens I ever used at the time. Then I tried the 120mm APO S…then after that the 50mm APO Summicron L. Technical quality has jumped enormously in the past 25 years. The 100mm APO is still an extremely good lens, even a great lens, especially when compared to non macro lenses. But the best of the modern lenses have what would have been considered spy satellite levels of performance at the time. The 105mm Sigma seems to be one of their strongest lenses, the mtf is above 80% contrast at 30lpmm across the whole frame wide open. It is hard to say exactly where the Leica is because they only list 20 and 40lpmm, but it looks very similar. It is hard to compare as the distances are not listed in the MTF charts for the Sigma, and the Leica's are at infinity. Not as helpful for macro lenses used up close...
If this had been a thread about general purpose photos, I would praise the 100mm APO for its bokeh, smooth focus and excellent character. But slide reproduction is above all about focusing to 1 to 1, flatness of field and sharpness. The Sigma seems like it has the edge there, if only because it can focus to 1 to 1 natively without any adapters. It is probably cheaper too, if the cost of the R adapter and elpro are added in. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[Chris W]

I think you want clinically sharp for digitising. 

I also use a Nikon 60mm f2.8.

You definitely need a 1:1 lens. I always shoot at f8. If it were me I would choose a modern L mount lens that had universally good reviews. The Sigma lenses are incredibly sharp, but I haven't used either of the macro models.

[jaapv]

18 hours ago, John Smith said:

I plan to digitize a bunch of slides and negatives. The Leica S 120mm is probably the best performer, but too expensive for the project, especially adding in the adapter. So the choice is between the Leica and Sigma. Has anyone compared the two? I ran across this review about the Sigma:

So that got me wondering. 

It has me wondering too. I use the 70 mm macro and it is an excellent and sharp lens. The only downside is that the AF is a bit slow (but it has to a long travel) and it tends to hunt in low light and close up (but who uses that combination?). The other drawback is its bulk.

[huwm]

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Sigma 105 macro art , popped into the garden after another rainy summer day/night

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by huwm
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[Chris W]

When digitising use manual focus, not auto focus.

[AZN]

I also use a 82C Color Correction filter to give a bit of a boost to the blue channel (asuming you are using artificial illumination).

Starting to drift off topic, so will stop here…

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[wjdrijfhout]

The Laowa 100mm f/2.8 macro could be an alternative as well. It is only manual focus, but has 2:1 reproduction ratio. It is extremely sharp and I've been very happy using it on my SL2.  

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I have several macro lenses, the one that is the best for digitizing negatives is a 80mm Componon f4 built for slide duplication, optimized for 1:1. I use it on a Beselar slide duplicator, which has a 3200K light source. I have also used my 55 MicroNikkor which goes to 1:1.