M11 & factory calibration with 35mm Summilux FLE

[Auroralabs]

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Hi all, I'm wondering how people's experience with the M11 & focus calibration with Summilux 35mm FLE is?

I have a new M11 and new 35mm FLE (manufactured 12/2021). I noticed my M11 is front focusing a few inches at f/1.4 and target is out of the sharp zone. Below are test photos focusing by rangefinder and then focusing with Live View (50% scale 60MP) at 2m distance. Focus by Live view is noticeably sharper. I've tested distances from 0.7m to 6m and the entire range front focuses target out of best sharpness zone.

I went to a dealer and tested with another new 35mm FLE Summilux and the result was similar (actually slightly more front focus). Then tested with another new M11 body and again same thing.

So both new 35mm FLE were calibrated close to each other. And both new M11 bodies calibrated close to each other, but combined with new 35mm FLE lenses all have similar front focusing results. It seems unlikely that both 35mm FLE lenses or both M11 bodies are out of spec in the same way. I can calibrate my rangefinder on my own so focus is nailed at f1.4 (while leaving some dof room in front to account for the focus shift back at f4) by adjusting the close focusing cam. I'm tempted to do this since nailing f/1.4 focus with this lens is important to me, but before I tweak a new camera I'm wondering what others experiences are with M11 calibration and shallow dof lenses like 35mm FLE?

Am I just being pickier than Leica's production standards and I should just tweak the calibration on my M11 to nail focus with this lens? 

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Edited June 7, 2022 by Auroralabs

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[jaapv]

The lens and the camera body are calibrated separately to a common standard. So if the camera frontfocuses similarly with different lenses it is certain that the camera is out of tolerance. That means the body must be adjusted, which is more maintenance than fault. A five minute job for a competent technician or even DIY for quite a few of us. 

[Photoworks]

My experience is spot on. I have the same lens, plus the Noctilus 0.95 and the 135. they all focus accurately.

Shifts are possible and it is something easy to get done if it is the case. I have see other people having difficulty with that and when I have tested there camera they where fine in my hands. It turned out they needed a Diopter correction on the rangefinder.

I am not saying it is you case, just check on it.

[tashley]

You could drive yourself crazy trying to figure this out. I couldn't get any 28mm lenses to give even focus across the field on M11, though all my other lenses were fine. It turned out the sensor needed re-aligning. 

My takeaway: send the camera away, with the lens, for several weeks - if you have another camera to use in the meantime. It is immensely frustrating and at these prices should never be necessary but as we all know, Leica QC is not consistently up to shipping flawless M products.

[jaapv]

There is another aspect here: The RF mechanism is a chain of mechanical linkages. Like all things mechanical, it can happen that things "settle in" during the first use: the position of moving elements changes slightly, microdebris are relocated, thickness of lubricant films change, etc. That means that the RF may be perfectly OK during the final QC, but runs out of tolerance during the first period of use. 
The joy of using mechanical, hand-assembled products...

[darylgo]

I’ve found the same as the OP on multiple M bodies and lenses. Send it to Leica. If you wish to delay a several week turnaround just factor in a slight turn of the focusing ring to nail focus or use a technique by many of moving your head slightly after focusing.  A rare issue, is infinity focus, check that it is calibrated properly at the hard stop. 

[darylgo]

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4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

There is another aspect here: The RF mechanism is a chain of mechanical linkages. Like all things mechanical, it can happen that things "settle in" during the first use: the position of moving elements changes slightly, microdebris are relocated, thickness of lubricant films change, etc. That means that the RF may be perfectly OK during the final QC, but runs out of tolerance during the first period of use. 
The joy of using mechanical, hand-assembled products...

That’s perfectly logical but Leica is in the business of making world class mechanical products.  Shouldn’t that aspect of manufacturing been solved many years ago?  If not, why?  

[Auroralabs]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

The lens and the camera body are calibrated separately to a common standard. So if the camera frontfocuses similarly with different lenses it is certain that the camera is out of tolerance. That means the body must be adjusted, which is more maintenance than fault. A five minute job for a competent technician or even DIY for quite a few of us. 

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I guess it's strange that when I tested a second new M11 body it did the same thing. So either both new M11 bodies are out, by the same amount. Or both new 35mm FLE lenses are out of spec, by the same amount. If I can be sure that it's the body, then I have no problems tweaking the calibration on my body on my own. I would much rather do that then send it away for a few weeks. I guess the only way to make sure it's the body is by testing a lot more lenses.. It just seems rather strange that two new copies of each body and lens all showed exactly the same front focusing..

I have 20/20 vision and have no problem matching the rangefinder images so I don't think it's user error either..

Edited June 7, 2022 by Auroralabs

[hmzimelka]

22 minutes ago, Auroralabs said:

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I guess it's strange that when I tested a second new M11 body it did the same thing. So either both new M11 bodies are out, by the same amount. Or both new 35mm FLE lenses are out of spec, by the same amount. If I can be sure that it's the body, then I have no problems tweaking the calibration on my body on my own.

I have 20/20 vision and have no problem matching the rangefinder images so I don't think it's user error either..

I have no experience with the lens in question, but does Leica perhaps not calibrate them with a minor correction for focus shift?  Seeing that both cameras and lenses are the same. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by hmzimelka

[jaapv]

There used to be a similar problem with the Summilux 50 asph. The floating  elements were designed to such a narrow tolerance that they had a batch of shims that caused all lenses of that series to front focus closeup. It took them months to get the correct parts. 

[Auroralabs]

36 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

I have no experience with the lens in question, but does Leica perhaps not calibrate them with a minor correction for focus shift?  Seeing that both cameras and lenses are the same. 

The focus does shift back at f4. Playing around with the shift, you can get f1.4 to f4 safely in the critical sharpness zone by calibrating the focus at f1.4 to have a bit more dof in front. 

Unfortunately in two M11 and two 35mm FLE they focus a bit too much in front to be in the critical sharpness zone.

[Auroralabs]

24 minutes ago, jaapv said:

There used to be a similar problem with the Summilux 50 asph. The floating  elements were designed to such a narrow tolerance that they had a batch of shims that caused all lenses of that series to front focus closeup. It took them months to get the correct parts. 

That's very interesting info.. In my case my 35FLE was manufacturered 11/2021 and the second 35FLE I tested manufactured 04/2022. They were calibrated similarly and both front focus on two M11 samples.

[jaapv]

That the formal production dates are apart is not that significant; Leica produces in batches, the parts come in in batches. 

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

I have no experience with the lens in question, but does Leica perhaps not calibrate them with a minor correction for focus shift?  Seeing that both cameras and lenses are the same. 

That is a valid thought, but Leica designed the FLE to minimize focus shift in respect to the previous version. If the problem is in the lenses I suspect the floating element  section, the tolerances there are on the brink of feasibility. 

[lct]

Your pictures are too small for my view sorry. I have not tested focus shift on the M11 yet but at full aperture, my FLE # 4193*** is normally accurate from 0.7m to infinity on it. If your issue is front focus on two different lenses, the problem comes from the body presumably but i would check again with a different focal length to make sure about that.

[dsm21]

I'd assume the rangefinder mechanism is slightly off rather than the lens.

It's an easy fix, and it's good knowledge to have, especially if you plan on sticking with a rangefinder.

 

 

 

 

[Auroralabs]

An update: I tested a 50mm APO and another 35FLE (not from recent batch) and both are perfect on my M11. So I think my body is fine and perhaps the two 35FLE manufactured recently are front focusing and needs to go back to get calibrated. This is such a frustrating experience as a new customer to the Leica ecosystem. I would prefer my body to be off as at least I can do the calibration myself but it looks like it's the new 35FLE.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Auroralabs

[Jeff S]

19 minutes ago, Auroralabs said:

An update: I tested a 50mm APO and another 35FLE (not from recent batch) and both are perfect on my M11. So I think my body is fine and perhaps the two 35FLE manufactured recently are front focusing and needs to go back to get calibrated. This is such a frustrating experience as a new customer to the Leica ecosystem. I would prefer my body to be off as at least I can do the calibration myself but it looks like it's the new 35FLE.

Have your dealer switch the lens.  Was the accurate one from dealer stock?

Jeff

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[hillavoider]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Have your dealer switch the lens.  Was the accurate one from dealer stock?

Jeff

yep this or at the very least make them give you a loaner, don't go easy on them they are a luxury brand and you pay for the experience 

[Auroralabs]

I bought the lens new online (I don't have a local dealer, drove a while to reach a dealer to do previous testing) , past the return period now so need to ship it to Leica to re-calibrate. I have a few questions about this, started a new thread. Would appreciate any experience here.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Auroralabs