L-system - Why poor sales?

[BernardC]

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17 hours ago, jplomley said:

I’ve had my limit and will be offloading all my L kit at my local dealer this weekend. I’ve waited far too long to see this system evolve the way it should have. No tilt shift, no macro, no wide angle primes. Enough is enough. 

So you'll adapt a tilt-shift to your new system, just as you would with your L kit. As others have mentioned, the difference is subtle, especially since these are manual focus lenses.

There are lots of wide angle primes and macros in L mount. Granted, they aren't all made by Leica, but Panasonic and Sigma lenses are as good as anything you'll find in competing full frame systems.

I'm not trying to discourage you from switching systems. It's a personal choice, and you should use the system that suits you best.

Every mirrorless systems has gaps in their lens line. Sony has the most lenses, but most of those are older low-quality items (there's a reason why cinematographers rarely use Sony lenses on Sony cine cameras). L-mount has the next highest number of available lenses, and they are all high-quality. Canon and Nikon are slowly adding to their offer. They each offer adapters for their old SLR lenses, but you can get those for Sony and L-Mount as well.

I guess if there's one lens from a single manufacturer that you absolutely need, then your system choice is easier. If not it's a tough choice. The four full-frame mirrorless systems each have USPs. It's unfortunate that you had to sell one system so soon, but hopefully you'll end-up with the best solution to your requirements.

[beewee]

As much as I complain about using M-lenses on the SL due to degraded performance compared to M bodies for wide angles, the SL2/SL2-S has a very good manual focus interface. Much better than many other mainstream brands that, on the AF front, runs circles around the L-mount systems.

[IkarusJohn]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:28 AM, nicci78 said:

SL2-S price has gone up 490€ since launch. Now a 650€ coupon = a mere 160€ discount…. Over 4500 or 6000€
😪

this is quite lame.

What?  Leica offering a discount?  Outrageous!  They’re going broke.  I’m selling all my Leica equipment before it stops working.

[caissa]

On 7/18/2022 at 11:18 PM, Planetwide said:

Considering that Leica announced the SL21mm in 2018 on their roadmap for a 2020 release, I would say that SL owners have every right to be disappointed in Leica. Covid, is not an excuse for this kind of delay, especially considering that the engineering is done, they just need to build them. If you are going to put out a line of camera's and roadmaps, then this leads to customer expectations. Leica, has made no announcements, no revised road maps, no anything... The system's poor sales is caused by LEICA and NOBODY ELSE... They seem content to ignore the marketplace's desire for these products, and in this case, the customer's have very right to be pissed.

A lot is talked about Russian gas that is now turned off and maybe will not come back on Thursday. I think glass production is also dependent upon gas. So I think this could be a reason why some required special glass types are not so easily available and maybe a lot more expensive than a few years back. And maybe this is holding back Leica from offering the new lenses (that probably depend upon special glass types).

Of course you can be pissed if it makes you happy. But in the end it is as it is. And Putin will not turn on gas again just to help Leica fulfill customers wishes ...

[caissa]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:22 AM, jbl375 said:

I bought SL2 few month ago as my second camera. Later, I found out that Leica SL21mm lens would not be available as plan, I felt frustrated.  How came I believed in that kind of poor marketing tactic?

At the time the firmware 4.0 was available, I was amused by the turmoil when people here got into trouble of upgrading their own SL2s.  Seem that the software engineers did not test the firmware before it was released.  So, all SL2 owner become rabbits at Leica laboratory.   And you found out the software bugs and saved the times of Leica engineers.  

I simply waited until the worst was over before upgrading and had never the slightest problem with this firmware upgrade. After all,  this information sharing is exactly what fora are good for (for clever users). But some prefer to use them for comments that the world does not need... and are even proud if they can stir up as much FUD as possible.

Well each after his own taste ...

[Planetwide]

10 minutes ago, caissa said:

A lot is talked about Russian gas that is now turned off and maybe will not come back on Thursday. I think glass production is also dependent upon gas. So I think this could be a reason why some required special glass types are not so easily available and maybe a lot more expensive than a few years back. And maybe this is holding back Leica from offering the new lenses (that probably depend upon special glass types).

Of course you can be pissed if it makes you happy. But in the end it is as it is. And Putin will not turn on gas again just to help Leica fulfill customers wishes ...

Maybe its time to restart production in Midland, Canada...

[MakinMemories]

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10 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

Maybe its time to restart production in Midland, Canada...

And for God's sake start building nuclear power plants again! Safe, clean, economical and plentiful when done right. Those who wish us to rush to EV's need to understand that our existing electrical grid cannot possibly cope with the massive load increases that would come from mass migration to EV...Hell, it cannot cope with our present needs as demonstrated by 'rolling blackouts'...

[frame-it]

30 minutes ago, caissa said:

I think glass production is also dependent upon gas. So I think this could be a reason why some required special glass types are not so easily available and maybe a lot more expensive than a few years back. And maybe this is holding back Leica from offering the new lenses (that probably depend upon special glass types).

this Gas "issue" has essentially started in Feb 2022.. so if that's the case, then its a very poor excuse

[oldwino]

Too funny blaming Putin for Leica’s lack of engagement in their marketing…

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

So, Leica must really be thinking hard about the value of releasing a 21 or 24 Summicron. Maybe the sales projections just don’t support the cost of manufacture any more. 

[Virob]

32 minutes ago, oldwino said:

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

So, Leica must really be thinking hard about the value of releasing a 21 or 24 Summicron. Maybe the sales projections just don’t support the cost of manufacture any more. 

Following the 35 with the 28 seemed like an odd choice. I suspect more people were/are waiting for a 24/21 then a 28. Both Sigma and Panasonic got it right releasing 35 and 24mm lens and now 20/18mm lenses.  Nothing against the 28 focal length, I actually prefer it to 35.

[robb]

2 hours ago, oldwino said:

Too funny blaming Putin for Leica’s lack of engagement in their marketing…

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

So, Leica must really be thinking hard about the value of releasing a 21 or 24 Summicron. Maybe the sales projections just don’t support the cost of manufacture any more. 

That’s definitely one way to look at it on size, weight, cost and comparison to other marques similar lenses.  But I’m not sure Leica is ever trying to compete against the 800 pound gorillas or that current buyers care.  We buy Leica because we want specifically what these lenses and cameras offer.  I’m not choosing based on price or size vs canon Nikon or Sony.

To me the 28 is too close to the 35 so most will pick one or the other and since Karbe declared the 35 his favorite and strongest lens ever, 28 sales will fall behind that.  The 24-90 is so good that 50 buyers who already have that and the 35/75 combo say “well maybe I’ll come back later for that one”…  We don’t really know that these lenses aren’t making them money.  I’m betting that Covid and the labor market hit Leica just like the rest of the world and they could either work on the 24/21 SL lenses or go quickly with the heavy dollar M hitters (that cost much more) where people are wrapped around the block four times shouting “take my money”.  I think the SL owners are also shouting “take my money” on the 24/21 but the buyer pool is much smaller.  And they gotta make the money before the next economic world wide recession.  I guess we just patiently wait.

Robb

[Reddy]

3 hours ago, oldwino said:

Too funny blaming Putin for Leica’s lack of engagement in their marketing…

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

So, Leica must really be thinking hard about the value of releasing a 21 or 24 Summicron. Maybe the sales projections just don’t support the cost of manufacture any more. 

I think the SL line is also opened up for Leica to produce perfect lenses at each focal length. Like the new 35mm, they have the freedom to create the SL APO and now using the knowledge and mirror them back to M series. People don't use the M lenses because of there is no AF and SL and S series giving them the option, however there are AF adapter mounts for Sony and Nikon with M lenses now, the pool of M lens user surely is bigger than SL user. I hope Leica follows Nikon to make some vintage camera R body in SL line to increase the sales, SL lenses quality are generally excellent and I really hope that the SL series can last 30 to 40 years.

[caissa]

4 hours ago, MakinMemories said:

And for God's sake start building nuclear power plants again! Safe, clean, economical and plentiful when done right. Those who wish us to rush to EV's need to understand that our existing electrical grid cannot possibly cope with the massive load increases that would come from mass migration to EV...Hell, it cannot cope with our present needs as demonstrated by 'rolling blackouts'...

Nuclear power is by far the most expensive type of energy (and not even adding the cost of building it back and caring about the dangerous output). Why can’t you start counting the money ? Then you see clearly that renewables is what pays off (short term and even much more long term).

Also nuclear means buying from Russia (Rosneft is the main supplier and was founded by Putin, even if the “ore” is from Kasachstan or Canada or many other sources. They have stakes in many other suppliers). So what is the point in going this direction ?

Nuclear energy is for people who cannot do maths. And who want to get their hands on plutonium for weapons.

Nuclear is also not flexible and cannot be used to replace natural gas (production of thermal energy or for chemical reactions). It is mainly for old people who cannot use their brains anymore.

 

One more fact, if ALL current cars (PKWs) are in one go replaced by EVs, the electricity needed by them is about 15 to 20% of current use (in Germany which is the biggest country). Of course this is not possible, the old cars will still continue on petrol and only a few percent of cars are new each year.

So all EVs can currently already run easily on renewable energy. (About 50 % of current electricity production in Germany is coming from renewables and this will be grown to 80% of a bigger sum). And the money for Diesel and Petrol would simply be saved, an enormous amount of money that would not flow out of the country.

Of course they cannot be charged all at the same time. But this is common already: If all hairdryers would be running at the same time we would have an immediate collapse of the electricity grid. (Or think of people cooking at the same time).

Edited July 20, 2022 by caissa

[caissa]

4 hours ago, frame-it said:

this Gas "issue" has essentially started in Feb 2022.. so if that's the case, then its a very poor excuse

That is your point of view. And obviously you have no clear view ...

[caissa]

4 hours ago, oldwino said:

Too funny blaming Putin for Leica’s lack of engagement in their marketing…

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

So, Leica must really be thinking hard about the value of releasing a 21 or 24 Summicron. Maybe the sales projections just don’t support the cost of manufacture any more. 

Several M 24s are gone, so the SL24 will also have a difficult life.

”Blaming Putin”, what kind of frog are you ? There are facts behind some developments. And in some cases it is Putin - that is far more realistic than seeing Gates behind it. “blaming someone” is a bit childish anyway, and not in the right place if you are looking for reasons. This is a very simplistic way of looking at things .

Edited July 20, 2022 by caissa

[frame-it]

30 minutes ago, caissa said:

That is your point of view. And obviously you have no clear view ...

you actually think leica did not release the SL wides in 2019-2021 because of the Gas problem with Russia?

 

one more for the ignore list..

 

[PeterGA]

4 hours ago, oldwino said:

Too funny blaming Putin for Leica’s lack of engagement in their marketing…

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

So, Leica must really be thinking hard about the value of releasing a 21 or 24 Summicron. Maybe the sales projections just don’t support the cost of manufacture any more. 

 

Guess what?

 

 

 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, PeterGA said:

Guess what?

Ah, the famous rebadged Sigma

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, caissa said:

Russian gas

Russian Must have the same GAS problems  than every one else. GAS for 21mm and Gas for 24mm. I assume nobody can do photography until they have this lenses in hands.

I don't think this is a place for politics, so just bringing conversation back to the art of photography.

The reason why Leica has and L-alliance is to be able to use all the lenses they can't produce themself on you SL2.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, oldwino said:

I could believe that Leica finally figured out that the SL lenses are not making them money.  The zooms are really overbuilt and not fast enough for today’s market (right or wrong, people want f2.8 or wider). They are probably expensive to produce. The Summilux was meant to be a statement, but turned out to just say “too heavy”, and thus shrunk its window of usability. And it is really expensive. The Summicrons were a step in the right direction, size and weight-wise, and they are really excellent, but wildly overpriced compared to the other L mount offerings. The euphoria around the 50 and especially the 35 seems to have calmed a bit, and nobody seems to have bought the 28… 

so you want a zoom that is f 2.0? just like the huge canon ? big and heavy, slow AF and most important no lend IS?

I think you find some Leica and non Leica excellent options in the 2.8 range. there is always a big talk about faster glass, but finding the right compromise between optical quality and size is the challenge.