L-system - Why poor sales?

[jrp]

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Thanks for taking the trouble to put that together, even if I don’t agree with all your judgements. 

- The Z9 and S lenses seem competitive. Trouble is that their former USP — the F mount — isn’t helping the, much as many of the older lenses, which were described as legends at the time, are not up to contemporary standards (as is the case with some M lenses)

- For me, Sony is what I turn to when I need to save weight. The E mount provides access to Sigma lenses, if you don’t like the Sony one. That said, the likes of the 50mm f1.2 are as good as their Leica counterparts, where they exist, and are more compact ‘ lighter. (That said, I prefer the rendering of the SL Summilux.)  I’m not sure that they deliberately cripple their cameras. The A7R4 has had a version of the sensor now in the M11 for 3 years. WeI’ll see what the next iteration of the A7R line brings.  What the A1 has is (a) fast processors (b) a stacked sensor for fast readout (as do the Nikon and Canon flagships, I think)

I still prefer the image quality, ease of use and build quality of the SL line when I can manage the weight and am not taking moving subjects. I look forward to the emergence of the 20 and 24 Summicrons, although I do wonder whether there is going to be much of an improvement over the 20mm f1.8 Sony G lens and the 24mm f1.4 GM at the same apertures. 

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Is there really a "frontier?" YouTubers always review the latest cameras, and switch systems every week, but that's their business model.

Let's have a look at each system's USP.

Nikon is easy. They are a dying system with nothing but former glories. It's sad to watch.

Sony's USP used to be that they let you use EOS lenses on a mirrorless camera. They also had a USP of a high-megapixel sensor, but landscape users have moved-on. Then their USP became "speed," but they aren't any faster than Canon and (probably) Nikon these days. Their "negative USP" is that you need to spend $6500 to get their full-featured camera. Anything else in their lineup is throttled. Also, they only have a few class-competitive lenses.

Canon is the "worry-free" choice. They are have something to offer in every category, and they are ahead in professional-support and super-telephoto.

L Mount's USP is video (the S1H and fp are loved by professionals), image quality, and lenses. While Canon rules over 400mm, L Mount has it all in the more common range: from cost-no-object Leica lenses, to high-quality competitively-priced Panasonic and Sigma, and even high-quality kit lenses.

Their other USP is choice. With Sony, your buying decision is "what features am I willing to give-up if I can't afford the a1?" With Canon you get a choice of R3 (high speed, low megapixel) or R5 (less speed, more pixels). Compare that to the variety in L-mount: two flavours of SLs for exquisite interface and usability, your choice of full-featured "heavy metal" or entry-level/light from Panasonic, and four different video-centric cameras from Sigma and Panasonic. Some will argue that L-Mount provides too much variety, but it's a USP because no other system has this. They also don't have any stripped-out "cameras of shame." The S5 at the low-end has better video features than almost any hybrid at any price.

 

As we all know, the main weak point for L Mount is AF speed. They are good but not great, especially for sports. No system is perfect, and we all know that anyone who specializes in sports uses Canon (unless their press syndicate signed a exclusive contract with Sony!).

Interesting opinions/summary, even if I don’t agree with all your judgements. 

[Photoworks]

32 minutes ago, jrp said:

The A7R4 has had a version of the sensor now in the M11 for 3 years.

🧐 repeating it often enough, does it become a fact? works just like propaganda.

[BernardC]

54 minutes ago, jrp said:

The A7R4 has had a version of the sensor now in the M11 for 3 years.

The Sigma fp-l uses that sensor. The M11 uses a 60MP sensor without PDAF, and with a response curve that is very similar to the SL2 47MP sensor. Leica doesn't say who the supplier is. 

Interestingly, Sigma uses the sensor in a completely different way than Sony. The a7r cameras were originally sold to landscape photographers, but that market moved to Fuji and Hasselblad medium format. Sigma uses the resolution for variable frame size in video. 

[LBJ2]

8 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The Sigma fp-l uses that sensor. The M11 uses a 60MP sensor without PDAF, and with a response curve that is very similar to the SL2 47MP sensor. Leica doesn't say who the supplier is. 

Interestingly, Sigma uses the sensor in a completely different way than Sony. The a7r cameras were originally sold to landscape photographers, but that market moved to Fuji and Hasselblad medium format. Sigma uses the resolution for variable frame size in video. 

More interesting opinions 😉

[jrp]

[I should also have said that one area where Leica / Panasonic excel (at least Sony) is IBIS.  This means that I can shoot at ISO 100 for a lot of the time, which more than offsets the sensor noise advantage of the Sony A1, eg]

[frame-it]

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7 hours ago, BernardC said:

With Canon you get a choice of R3 (high speed, low megapixel) or R5 (less speed, more pixels)

but both with killer AF

based on your explanation [ which is quite accurate ], the SL series is also "throttled" in a way, weak processor, weak AF etc etc

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

🧐 repeating it often enough, does it become a fact? works just like propaganda.

the M11 sensor is the IMX455 series AQK variant, made by Sony

FPS (Sensors): 21.33 fps Manufacturer: Sony Pixel Size (Sensors): 3.76µm Resolution (Sensors): 61.17M Scan/Series: STARVIS Shutter (Sensors): Rolling Signal (Sensors): RGB And there is also an ALK variant that's Monochrome! FPS (Sensors):     21.33 fps Manufacturer:     Sony Pixel Size (Sensors):     3.76µm Resolution (Sensors):     61.17M Scan/Series:     STARVIS Shutter (Sensors):     Rolling Signal (Sensors):     Monochrome

[IkarusJohn]

Tell us more about the M11 Monochrom … and we know all this how?

Actually, no don’t bother.  I know you were responding to a question raised.  How do you know and why should we care?  Leica not disclosing who makes its components is good enough for me - it’s a Leica camera, not a Sony sensor …

The thing is, identifying the sensor is only a small(ish) part of the picture.  It’s what Leica does with it which makes the camera a Leica, and not a Sony.  Drawing conclusions from one part of the camera doesn’t really lead anywhere useful.

 

[Kim Dahl]

I want to know who makes the sensor.  Thank you.  I know that there is a difference in many other things.  Leica is not Sony or vice versa.  But exciting that Leica has the same sensor in their M11 as Sony. Thanks for the information. 

[frame-it]

10 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Tell us more about the M11 Monochrom

dunno about the m11 monochrome, though im sure there will be one very soon,

 

i only commented on the sensor, and the fact that a monochrome version of it exists

manufacture do customize sensors for each company they supply to

[IkarusJohn]

5 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

I want to know who makes the sensor.  Thank you.  I know that there is a difference in many other things.  Leica is not Sony or vice versa.  But exciting that Leica has the same sensor in their M11 as Sony. Thanks for the information. 

Fair enough - what does it tell you?

The reason I am less than interested is that it leads to the rather pointless comments elsewhere that because a camera has “X” sensor, it is then comparable or better or worse than other cameras with that sensor, or a later or earlier version of that sensor.  So, I’m expressing that opinion, considering the camera on its merits, rather than the sensor - only part of the whole.  Knowing what sensor is in my Monochrom doesn’t really affect my enjoyent of that camera, even though it is CCD.

Consider the Sony 50-c sensor.  I don’t have the technical details, but I do know that sensor has been around for years, and has appeared in many cameras.  But it remains fit for purpose, and still much better than any 135 format sensor.  In the X1D II, it’s fantastic.

A lot of technical detail and specification information doesn’t actually do much, but drive sales …

[Kim Dahl]

The answer is very simple.  If I was not interested in details, others' Leica knowledge and small details about Leica.  Then I would not read this forum.  So for me, it's important.  If the information is not important I will just skip the answer and move on.That I know small details does not make me enjoy my Leica equipment less.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Kim Dahl

[IkarusJohn]

The forum meets many needs. It’s strength is the extensive knowledge of its members, and their willingness to share that knowledge. 

[PeterGA]

Leica's target market is not comparable to any other manufacturer.

The whole premise of this thread is just a rehash of the open question regarding how long can a company survive charging massive premiums for its products versus other companies which can't. People either understand that the world is made up of individuals with individual preferences and from an economics perspective indifference curves and individual responses to marginal utilities - or they don't.

When Leica releases the SL3 with a 60+MP chip - they will sell their next bunch of SL'3's for huge premiums - in the meantime a lot of Leica buyers are enjoying their 60+mp M11 which sells for - huge premiums....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hamey]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:09 AM, Martin B said:

A recent survey on YouTube posted by M. Osborne added to this. The raised question was "What is your most used type of Leica camera?" After 20 hours, nearly 500 votes came in resulting in the following:

Leica M cameras - 69%
Leica SL cameras -  7%
Leica Q cameras - 12%
Leica CL cameras - 4%
Not interested in Leica, using Lumix or other brands - 8%

This represents well my impression I had for a while. Leica was pushing via advertisements and influencers the SL cameras a lot in the past few years which indicated that the SL series was not selling too well. What is missing is either a Leica Q with exchangeable M-mount or a Leica M with EVF and electronic Q features. The SL is too bulky for M users to adapt to the size and competes for a much higher price tag with Lumix and other full-frame mirrorless cameras on the market. 

No mention of Leica's flagship the S  system, perhaps it's in dry dock waiting for a refit or scraping?

The last time  I visited the Leica shop the poor S camera was hidden in the corner and the M and Q  cameras where in front of the entrance  it's obvious what Leica is interested in promoting.

[BernardC]

8 minutes ago, hamey said:

No mention of Leica's flagship the S  system, perhaps it's in dry dock waiting for a refit or scraping?

The last time  I visited the Leica shop the poor S camera was hidden in the corner and the M and Q  cameras where in front of the entrance  it's obvious what Leica is interested in promoting.

The S plays in a different market, it's not a typical retail purchase. It's good that they have a demo for professionals to try out, but it's also very unlikely to be an impulse purchase.

[Martin B]

10 hours ago, hamey said:

No mention of Leica's flagship the S  system, perhaps it's in dry dock waiting for a refit or scraping?

The last time  I visited the Leica shop the poor S camera was hidden in the corner and the M and Q  cameras where in front of the entrance  it's obvious what Leica is interested in promoting.

At the time, the S system was a good digital medium format system where only Hasselblad/Phase 1 competed in. The S-system became fairly redundant with Fuji's introduction of their medium format MLC like the 50R. The Fuji had higher performance for much less money and allows also to adapt lenses from other brands similar to Leica's S. That's IMO why the S system is now a niche at best.

[V23]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:13 AM, frame-it said:

and Leica are wrong, since canon/nikon/sony are releasing so many APS-C models now

And Fujifilm!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

21 minutes ago, V23 said:

And Fujifilm!

yeah xh2s and later xh2R

Edited June 20, 2022 by frame-it