A plea for simplicity

[Chris W]

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Ha, ha. I really like the M240. It reminds me of my old M6.

The problem with the FP is it only has electronic shutter. Ruined a trip I made a couple of weeks ago. 

[Chris W]

Low quality JPEGs from my FP (due to the forum limitations) shot two weeks ago in France.

The FP is NOT a 'crappy' camera IMO. The images I was getting were crisp with beautiful colours, until I ran into the banding issues from the electronic shutter. But in natural daylight I get lovely images from the camera. I much prefer it to my CL - which is why I'm contemplating buying an SL.

Tiny body and tiny contemporary 45mm and 90mm lenses.

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Edited June 3, 2022 by Chris W

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[LocalHero1953]

I also like the fp for what it is. A handy small video camera that can take stills with great IQ comparable with those from a Leica (including colour science), a menu system that is a step up from Leica's, and needs no additional lenses with a different mount. Its ergonomics are too poor for me to want to use it as a handheld stills camera though.

Edited June 3, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Photoworks]

22 minutes ago, Chris W said:

That's a pretty radical opinion.

It's actually excellent at both video and stills. It is particularly great for video and is being championed on many video centric forums now.

It was originally criticised by people who are 1) vloggers and 2) want to edit LOG quickly in FCPX

Just electronic shutter is a deal breaker for me if the rolling shutter is so prominent.

 

[Chris W]

I bought a very cheap Niceyrig grip and it handles very well. I had no problem shooting a rock concert in semi darkness and hot/sweaty conditions.

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[Chris W]

1 minute ago, Photoworks said:

Just electronic shutter is a deal breaker for me 

 

Yes, it is the major flaw - mostly in lighting for me. Some of the gig pictures came out well, but most had terrible banding.

I have never handled one, but I like what I've seen of the SL simplicity-wise.

[Photoworks]

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1 minute ago, Chris W said:

I bought a very cheap Niceyrig grip and it handles very well. I had no problem shooting a rock concert in semi darkness and hot/sweaty conditions.

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I am sure you can make images with it in good hands.

Sorry nothing sexy about the rig!

[LocalHero1953]

2 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Sorry nothing sexy about the rig!

Are there video rigs that look sexy? I though the only point was to make them look like a big boy's Lego Technics constructor kit.

[Chris W]

I choose functional over 'sexy'.

[tom.w.bn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Chris W:

That's a pretty radical opinion.

It's actually excellent at both video and stills. It is particularly great for video and is being championed on many video centric forums now.

It was originally criticised by people who are 1) vloggers and 2) want to edit LOG quickly in FCPX

...and people who need a mechanical shutter from time to time because you simply can't shoot everything with a camera that has electronic shutter only.

edit...just saw that was mentioned before.

Edited June 3, 2022 by tom.w.bn

[tom.w.bn]

I don't understand why people consider a Leica SL large and a Leica M small. The M setup is only slightly smaller. When I want something small I'd take the Ricoh GR III anytime for photos.

Is simplicity really having less features? For me it's making access to featues easy and not confusing the user although there are many features. I like the menu layout and less buttons of the SL2-S and it feels nice but I use the flip-out screen of my Panasonic too often... I think I would miss that.

 

[chris_tribble]

Aren't we talking about the problem inherent in capitalism with its ever present need to create new desires.  I sometimes feel that camera firms are like sharks - they have to keep moving "forward" or they die.  For me the M11 is the result of this sort of desire for apparent progress, and in my humble opinion is a step away from what the M excels at.  I'm very happy with my M10-R, SL2 and Q2. I might never buy another camera (maybe...).  I probably don't need to....🙃

Edited June 3, 2022 by chris_tribble

[NERICSSON]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I am also a fan of simplicity.

But

I also want my cameras to have video!

Simplicity gives a different perception for all of us...

For me, simplicity would mean a camera that includes just what I beleive I need.

Better ISO, AF etc. i.e. technical evolution, doesnt mean for me that simlicity is compromised. For me, inclusion of video features, GPS or any other, for me unwanted, is a step in wrong direction.

My "dream" addition to SL lens range would be lenses with AF but with aperture ring, just as Q lens.

As with Q I feel that SL is missing dedicated ISO knob/wheel, I just love the feeling when you can easily see on the outside(camera off or on) what settings you have and adjust them by mechanical feel, one "click" , one stop, it works without looking... 

I almost would like a SL ala  Leica M-60... 

 

[adan]

1 hour ago, tom.w.bn said:

I don't understand why people consider a Leica SL large and a Leica M small.

Well, to some extent, Leica users in particular (but not uniquely) suffer from "Princess and Pea" syndrome.

http://hca.gilead.org.il/princess.html

However:

SL body has a volume (height x depth x width) of 1300 cm^3 - Leica M11 body has a volume of 434 cm^3 - SL is 3 times the volume of the M11. One has to count the SL's protuding eyepiece and "faux-prism" hump.

SL body weighs 916 grams - Leica M11 weighs 530g (black) to 640g (silver) - the SL weighs 43-73% more than an M11.

And that, of course, does not include the weigh and size of their "native" lenses - 35 APO-Summicron-SL weighs 750 grams, 35mm APO-Summicron-M weighs 320 grams.

The SL with 35mm SL lens weighs 1.66 kg - the silver M11 and 35 APO M lens weighs less than 1 kg (960 grams) or in black, only 850g (less than the weight of an SL without any lens, and virtually half the weight (51%) of the SL with its equivalent lens.)

[NERICSSON]

31 minutes ago, NERICSSON said:

Simplicity gives a different perception for all of us...

For me, simplicity would mean a camera that includes just what I beleive I need.

Better ISO, AF etc. i.e. technical evolution, doesnt mean for me that simlicity is compromised. For me, inclusion of video features, GPS or any other, for me unwanted, is a step in wrong direction.

My "dream" addition to SL lens range would be lenses with AF but with aperture ring, just as Q lens.

As with Q I feel that SL is missing dedicated ISO knob/wheel, I just love the feeling when you can easily see on the outside(camera off or on) what settings you have and adjust them by mechanical feel, one "click" , one stop, it works without looking... 

I almost would like a SL ala  Leica 

 What would be needed is a Q with replaceable lens(and new lens serie with AF/aperture ring, size would be between Q and SL... And ISO wheel 🙂

[NERICSSON]

1 minute ago, NERICSSON said:

 What would be needed is a Q with replaceable lens(and new lens serie with AF/aperture ring, size would be between Q and SL... And ISO wheel 🙂

And without video

[chris_tribble]

But isn’t simple a matter of context?
For rural or urban walks when I want wide and near macro the Q2 is damn near perfect (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ctribble/shares/k356br).

For reportage or urban, the M10-R with 28 Summicron Asph and a 50 Summilux in the bag meets most of my needs (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ctribble/shares/6HtYGr).  

And for events or performance (and for wildlife of course) I’ve fallen in love with the SL2 and the lovely AF 24-90 / 90-280 zooms (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ctribble/shares/076pCS)

Life can be quite simple sometimes 😎

Edited June 3, 2022 by chris_tribble

[Olaf_ZG]

In my office I have some images hanging, sizes 70x100cm. Gorgeous, taken in the dark, 15 years ago with a sony 10mp camera and a flash.

those images remind me every day that 10mp is enough, and so is 1600 iso with additional flash.

so, the m8/m9 is all what one needs. I bought the m10 and a sl: 24mp on full frame to me is really more than enough. But then, I don’t do video, use reflectors and or flash …

but the latter people don’t use anymore, natural light , preferably dark is what we want. I need to zoom in, as i am scared to come close…

i repeat myself: cameras are like phones, the smarter they get, the dumber we are.

ofcourse i am generlizing, and without any dispect: if you look at the image threads, most images could have been taken with two to three older versions of the camera.

but then, it is our hobby, and gas is here. Better buy equipment than drugs 😎🌈

[IkarusJohn]

11 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Can you say what you mean by this? 

I found the SL2 and SL2-S a big step up in usable technology: IBIS in both, superb low light colour in the SL2-S and excellent video for those who are making simple videos* - there are plenty of fans using it for professional or semi-professional work at the simple, lightweight end. I exploit all these technical improvements (as an amateur).

I support some of your comments in the OP. I value Leica cameras for their simple intuitive interfaces, and because they do seem to concentrate on getting out of the way of the photographer. That does not mean that I want functions removed - hidable, by all means, as long as they remain accessible. Personally, as I commented in my previous post, I find the purist cult of the M detrimental to its development. Taking the same approach with the SL series and other Leicas would drive me away - I would have to spend my money on other brands to get the tools that I want.

 

* I have used it for promo videos, for drama and concert recordings, for recording events in lockdown for youtube etc.

Hi Paul,

I agree that the SL cameras are really jacks of all trades - I love the fact that the SL is optimised for M lenses, takes R lenses, and has it’s own AF lenses, made without compromise to size (as were the R lenses?).  I don’t use video, but I don’t mind it being there.  Not so much the M system.

The M system is all about the lenses.

My point was really that I like the concept that you only include or provide what is needed.  Sean Reid’s review suggests to me that actually for dynamic range, the SL2 doesn’t gain much.  Yes, it has more pixels, but I have never believed we need them.  They’re there either because the can be, or that’s the best sensor on offer.  Having been less than enthusiastic about the M11, I don’t wish to bring down the wrath of SL2 and SL2-S owners on my head.  IBIS?  Never had it, never felt I need it.

Put this another way - I bought my M9 because of its simplicity, and never missed what the Canon 5D2 (the other option) had to offer, with its nasty plasticky feel, too many buttons, just … too much.  Maybe the SL has been improved - what I’ve read doesn’t convince me.  My more particular concern is that rather than perfecting an existing concept, Leica is falling into the trap of bettering things because they can.

Makes me sound like a purist or a Luddite.  I am keen on improvement (losing the baseplate, improving battery life, USB charging in camera, improving the viewfinder, better dynamic range, faster buffer etc), but not unnecessary complications - it looks like chasing the competition, and diluting Leica’s unique point of difference.

John

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[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, NERICSSON said:

 What would be needed is a Q with replaceable lens(and new lens serie with AF/aperture ring, size would be between Q and SL... And ISO wheel 🙂

I really don’t understand this at all.

The Q has a fixed lens, with leaf shutter, dedicated to its sensor and EVF.  Which bit do you like? The SL system already has all that, at the cost of size.  Small AF, full frame L mount lenses?  Can’t see that happening, to be honest. The alternative would be an M camera with an EVF (covered to death elsewhere).

The thing is, the Q works so well because of what it is.  If anything, I’d like a larger sensor - the 135 format is so successful because of the size and availability of so many lenses.  If the lens is fixed and dedicated to the sensor, why not add a larger sensor …

Edited June 3, 2022 by IkarusJohn