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Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/60 and Apo-Extender 2x ?


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I want to copy my slides and negatives to digital. In a simple repro setup with a lightbox.

Today I did a test with my TL2 and R 2.8/60, closest focus give a bit to much border around a 135 slide. With the Macro-Adpter-R i get to close, and focus range is limited so I can not increase distance to get full frame of the 135 slide.

Would a Apo-Extender-R 2x give the same closest focus distance as without? That would give me the possibility to find a distance that frame correctly.

Is this a good idea overall? Perhaps the gain in megapixels will be negated by loss of quality?

This project is to make all analog film I have into the computer, for viewing on screen, and not for printing big. So the resolution I get already now is good enough, approx 15 Mpx, but closer to 24 Mpx would be nice.

Has someone tested Apo-Extender 2x with the Macro 2.8/60 ?

(yes I know about the Apo 2.8/100 and Elpro but not my budget right now)

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Posted (edited)

Here is a first try. (Voigtländer 15 mm) copied with TL2 + Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/60 @ f8 and closest possible distance

(my conversion script was fooled by the highlight from the lightbox… so a bit dark)

Edited by MattiasAndersson
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Yes, better than I expected.

I did not flatten the film, I have a film holder from a LS1000 scanner that I will try.

Also I used tripod as a quick test. Sensor is not exacctly in same plane as the film. I have to get a proper repro stand, and align the setup.

I’m using the Matlab image toolbox for processing, starting with slides for now, Next step will be BW negatives, and last color negatives. Fun for rainy days… 🙂

 

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb MattiasAndersson:

Would a Apo-Extender-R 2x give the same closest focus distance as without?

Yes

vor 13 Stunden schrieb MattiasAndersson:

With the Macro-Adpter-R i get to close, and focus range is limited so I can not increase distance to get full frame of the 135 slide.

?? - Macro-Elmarit is infinity to 1:2 and Macro-Elmarit + Macro-Adapter is 1:2 until 1:1, related to 135 slide.

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The TL2 sensor measures 15.7mm x 23.6mm. A 135 slide (unframed) is 24mm x 36mm. Hence, you need 1:1.53 magnification (24/15.7 = 36/23.6 = 1.53). You can reach this magnification with the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm and the Macro-Adapter-R. Just don't use the lens at close focus distance in this case (which gives you 1:1).

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25 minutes ago, Andreas_Kreuz said:

Yes

?? - Macro-Elmarit is infinity to 1:2 and Macro-Elmarit + Macro-Adapter is 1:2 until 1:1, related to 135 slide.

I was not clear.

the TL2 has APS-C sensor, so Macro-Elmarit without Macro adapter is already close to the frame format of 135 slide. See above test picture.

I will use my Macro-Adapter and get closer, your information suggest that I can use it and still focus at say 1:1.8. I did not try that yesterday, thankyou Andreas.

Thank you for claryfing about the Apo extender.

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9 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

The TL2 sensor measures 15.7mm x 23.6mm. A 135 slide (unframed) is 24mm x 36mm. Hence, you need 1:1.53 magnification (24/15.7 = 36/23.6 = 1.53). You can reach this magnification with the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm and the Macro-Adapter-R. Just don't use the lens at close focus distance in this case (which gives you 1:1).

Thank you, I had only tried it at closest distance before.

Will do!

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Posted (edited)

Progress !, now I get the correct framing. I believe I have the optimal focus, and f8 should give the sharpest result.

OK result, but the Velvia (RVP) looks better irl under the loupe...

Edited by MattiasAndersson
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  • 2 weeks later...

Thank you for the link, interesting company and products.

How much better is the digitizing result with the 100 APO vs Macro-elmarit 60? Do you use the Elpro with apo?

I will keep using the 60, and maximize the result (better film holder, better light, understanding the process with negative film etc), but in the end a 100 apo might give even better results?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MattiasAndersson said:

How much better is the digitizing result with the 100 APO vs Macro-elmarit 60? Do you use the Elpro with apo?

Mentioned this on another thread.  What you need is a macro lens that does 1:1.  I use a Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8 D, with manual focus and (of course) a lens-mount adapter:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/12/16/nikon-af-micro-nikkor-60mm-f-2-8d-lens-review.aspx/

Also use a Nikon ES-1 "Film Digitising Adapter" for duping 35mm film:

https://www.nikon.com.au/es-1-slide-copying-adapter

Looked at upgrading to the ES-2, but it has problems with thicker plastic slide-mounts.

Whatever. You need something that lets you work quickly and yet delivers high quality results.  Unfortunately your current set-up is prone to problems:

  • Film alignment (eg. rotation)
  • Back-light bleeding around the film
  • Ambient light falling onto the front of the film
  • Film curl (I assume there is no glass pressing the film flat?)
  • Bulky apparatus and a dust-magnet

 

On 6/1/2022 at 7:23 AM, MattiasAndersson said:

This project is to make all analog film I have into the computer, for viewing on screen, and not for printing big. So the resolution I get already now is good enough, approx 15 Mpx, but closer to 24 Mpx would be nice.

My 35mm copies are @ 30 MP (I use a Sony A7RII for copy work).  There is no point going larger because all you are doing is getting sharper film grain 😃

 

Edited by AZN
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8 hours ago, AZN said:

all you are doing is getting sharper film grain

This topic is interesting, how large is the grain of a Velvia 50 ? And what resolution is needed to get all grains sharp from a tri-x ? I suppose the answers to these questions set the target requirement for digitizing film.

What light source do you use ?

I have little or no knowledge on requirement on light sources, but find it strange that the recommended light (kaiser slim etc) is not collimated, as in an enlarger.
 

 

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb MattiasAndersson:

Thank you for the link, interesting company and products.

How much better is the digitizing result with the 100 APO vs Macro-elmarit 60? Do you use the Elpro with apo?

I will keep using the 60, and maximize the result (better film holder, better light, understanding the process with negative film etc), but in the end a 100 apo might give even better results?

Hi,

the results are nearly identical because you have to close the aperture to 5,6 or 8 to compensate minimal negative curvature - depending on film holder. In field the 100mm is wide open better than the 60mm - thanks to the APO-correction), but stopped down it is hard to see a difference.

The 100mm (with Macro-Adapter - not with the Elpro) war always my workhorse (I got my 60mm this year in January). It has a wider working distanace which makes the working more comfortable. The 60mm is very close to the negative but has advantages to bigger negatives like 4x5" or 6x6cm medium format.

P.S. For film hoders: Try an old one from an Focomat or an other glassless from an enlager.

 

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb TeleElmar135mm:

The Novoflex film copying device fits inside their bellow rails and is much better than a copy stand since parallelism is ensured.

The extender should give twice as large an image even without the extension ring. What I use is a (Rodenstock) enlanging lens in an  Olympus bellows which has the advantage of not allowing light between lens and film. Daylight works well as light source.

p.

 

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The Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm + Macro Adapter-R works very well on the Leica CL/TL/etc for copying 35mm slides and negative. Personally, I prefer to use APS-C for copying 35mm negatives because there's less magnification required, which makes for a more compact setup with less trouble due to camera vibration. As others have said, about 1:1.5 magnification is what's needed for this setup, well within the 1:2 to 1:1 ranger of the 60+extension tube.

  • All using a 100mm lens would do is make the necessary setup larger, heavier, and require more distance from the film.
  • You need a good film holder to ensure film flatness for best results ... the Essential Film Holder by Andrew Clifforth is a very good option at a reasonable price. The film holders, illuminators, and copy stands sold by Negative Supply are also great, a little nicer than the EFH, but generally more expensive. 
  • You also need a decent light source. I use a relatively ancient flat panel flourescent light box that was once expensive; you can get better ones today for a fraction of what mine originally cost me. 
  • You need a good sturdy copy stand or other camera support and a bubble level to test and true both camera and film to be level and centered relative to each other. 

I do this kind of work all the time. Once you set everything up, tape all the movable bits in place with artist's tape and you can scan an entire roll of film in just a few minutes. Make a few test exposures with a Tri-Tone exposure target so you can get your camera's exposure settings right on the money, set once, and leave them alone; set the color temperature to a fixed Kelvin scale setting too, that way all your adjustments to the captures have a consistent color throughout and all respond to the same adjustment settings. 

G

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  • 1 month later...

Have this setup, 

https://www.leicastoresf.com/new/negative-supply-complete-basic-kit

but have not had time to test it. Will use Leica M10M with 90mm Macro for black and white negatives, and SL2-S with APO 100 and Elpro for color slides / negs.  Looks high quality and has good back light source with 35mm and 120mm negative holders (time to try a medium format film?)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/19/2022 at 1:33 PM, MattiasAndersson said:

Thank you G

I have an EFH on order.

What is a Tri-Tone exposure target ? (I will google it)

So far I have exposure set so I get good histogram, for each picture.

Sorry, Mattias ... I missed the question and didn't get back here until now. 

A Tri-Tone exposure target has a white, an 18% grey, and a black field, 1/3 each.

You fill the frame with it and make test exposures until you get something that looks like this on a histogram: 

It's a great tool to know that you're getting the entire window of exposure requirements into the proper range. 

G

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