Electronic Shutter Readout & Hand Shake (dumb question no. 1)

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, frame-it said:

interesting..how do you know its a sony sensor?

I did not say that M11 has a Sony sensor 😄. I said that a7riV and Sigma fp-L also have the readout speed of 100ms. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by SrMi
10ms -> 100ms

[jaapv]

Not really surprising. Assuming the same readout time per pixel, high resolution will slow the total readout time down. 

[jonoslack]

Hi there

As I understand it the readout time is, indeed, 1/10 second (same as the Sony A7Iv but it doesn’t mean it’s the same sensor……or that it isn’t!), this certainly imposes some limits on the usefulness of the electronic shutter.

On the other hand, I’m in Crete right now with the M11 and the Noctilux 75, and the electronic shutter is a real bonus, and I’m not too worried about occasional distortion!

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[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I did not say that M11 has a Sony sensor 😄. I said that a7riV and Sigma fp-L also have the readout speed of 10ms. 

Yes, that is 1/100s. Thorsten @Overgaard quoted 1/10s, i.e. 100ms.

Can anyone give a source? Not having a M11, I can't make an estimate.

Edited May 7, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[LBJ2]

FWIW. I've tested the M11 readout speed myself by taking a picture of a lit LED lamp and then counted the bands in the image and applying simple calculation as recommended by someone else on another forum. 

I used the M11 in electronic shutter mode to take a picture of a lit lamp in a dark room with a 60Hz LED bulb and was able to clearly see and count the bands/scan lines in the image. *The key for me was to do this test in a dark room with lit lamp in order to see the bands/scan lines in the image. The frame showed 12 bands/scan lines. From what I read, a light bulb using alternating current at 60Hz turns on and off 120 times per second, so I divided 120 by 12 bands = 1/10s 

Too bad Leica does not publish this info as it can be important to know IMO.

Regardless, I'm getting away with a lot more than I thought I could with the M11's silent shutter to include what I call micro movements. Macros movements can indeed cause distortions but something to just keep in mind, same as we do with shutter speed when needed. 

Could be better, but I'm happy to shoot my Noctilux throughout the day without "screwing" around ( pun intended) with a brass ND filter during the day. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by LBJ2

[LBJ2]

By chance, does someone know if the M11 image EXIF data denotes when electronic shutter is used to capture the image? 

[jonoslack]

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32 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Regardless, I'm getting away with a lot more than I thought I could with the M11's silent shutter to include what I call micro movements. Macros movements can indeed cause distortions but something to just keep in mind, same as we do with shutter speed when needed. 

Could be better, but I'm happy to shoot my Noctilux throughout the day without "screwing" around ( pun intended) with a brass ND filter during the day. 

Exactly - same here - you can make squiffy pictures if you try, but for many uses it's fine.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, that is 1/100s. Thorsten @Overgaard quoted 1/10s, i.e. 100ms.

Can anyone give a source? Not having a M11, I can't make an estimate.

Hiya - I understand that the A7 IV is 1/10 second - tested by several people (not me!). . . but I guess the actual readout speed depends on the resolution etc. and is not an absolute spec?

Edited May 7, 2022 by jonoslack
to add conditional about resolution

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, that is 1/100s. Thorsten @Overgaard quoted 1/10s, i.e. 100ms.

Can anyone give a source? Not having a M11, I can't make an estimate.

Sorry, mea culpa. Corrected my typo, it should be 100ms. I “measured” it the same way as here.

[SrMi]

53 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hiya - I understand that the A7 IV is 1/10 second - tested by several people (not me!). . . but I guess the actual readout speed depends on the resolution etc. and is not an absolute spec?

Since the the whole sensor is always read, I assume the resolution does not matter for M11. Have not tested it.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Since the the whole sensor is always read, I assume the resolution does not matter for M11. Have not tested it.

Well, I'm not going to test it, but perhaps it might be quicker if it's binning 2/3 of the pixels? On the other hand it might be slower!

Either way, I still think that the Electronic shutter is a real bonus, just that it isn't the answer to life, the universe, and everything!

all the best

 

[Tailwagger]

7 hours ago, jonoslack said:

On the other hand, I’m in Crete right now with the M11 and the Noctilux 75, and the electronic shutter is a real bonus, and I’m not too worried about occasional distortion!

Have to say that the color rendition of the M11/Nocti combo is sublime. 

[J12]

The very slow readout speed of the electronic shutter is concerning. Personally, I would gladly sacrifice the 60mp resolution for faster readout speed and better high ISO performance in low light.

With the M11 I was hoping use of the electronic shutter would help mitigate the issues with the mechanical shutter. The lag due to using sensor for metering and discrepancy between number of shots actually taken and number of times shutter button is pressed in quick succession is a no go. The “indeterminate moment” if you will.

The Leica M cameras have always appealed as a compact precision tool to capture carefully timed moments in a variety of conditions. The operation of the M11's mechanical shutter sounds like it would confound that trait. 

I might be wrong, but I believe the 24mp SL has a sensor readout time of around 1/30. I can make electronic shutter work for a number of scenarios using that camera, but still have to exercise caution and time shots carefully. i.e. Judge speed of motion and anticipate pauses in movement etc.

I would really like to see a robust electronic shutter mode in a future digital M camera, as it would be incredibly useful to have.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, J12 said:

The very slow readout speed of the electronic shutter is concerning. Personally, I would gladly sacrifice the 60mp resolution for faster readout speed and better high ISO performance in low light.

With the M11 I was hoping use of the electronic shutter would help mitigate the issues with the mechanical shutter. The lag due to using sensor for metering and discrepancy between number of shots actually taken and number of times shutter button is pressed in quick succession is a no go. The “indeterminate moment” if you will.

The Leica M cameras have always appealed as a compact precision tool to capture carefully timed moments in a variety of conditions. The operation of the M11's mechanical shutter sounds like it would confound that trait. 

I might be wrong, but I believe the 24mp SL has a sensor readout time of around 1/30. I can make electronic shutter work for a number of scenarios using that camera, but still have to exercise caution and time shots carefully. i.e. Judge speed of motion and anticipate pauses in movement etc.

I would really like to see a robust electronic shutter mode in a future digital M camera, as it would be incredibly useful to have.

You do not get better high ISO performance in low light with lower resolution (looking at output level).
You still get too much rolling shutter at 1/30 sec.
There are no issues with the M11 mechanical shutter, except the known bug that requires you to set preview to the shutter button (or similar).
Yes, an electronic shutter with a readout speed of 1/200 sec and faster would be helpful. It could eliminate the need for a mechanical shutter, which would probably upset many current Leica owners (see the removal of the bottom plate).

[LocalHero1953]

For what I use it for, I rarely have problems of movement distortion with the electronic shutter in the SL2-S or CL, so for outdoor use it's a non issue AFAIC.
I often have problems, though, with colour banding from artificial lighting indoors. It's definitely a real world issue, and the sooner shutter readouts speed up, the happier I will be.

I have read that it is not an issue with the Z9, but I have been unable to find out what its read out time is, or if they have another way of getting round the issue (reading the sensor with a random pattern of lines?) I don't think it is a truly global shutter i.e. one where every line is read at the same time.

Edited May 8, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

For what I use it for, I rarely have problems of movement distortion with the electronic shutter in the SL2-S or CL, so for outdoor use it's a non issue AFAIC.
I often have problems, though, with colour banding from artificial lighting indoors. It's definitely a real world issue, and the sooner shutter readouts speed up, the happier I will be.

I have read that it is not an issue with the Z9, but I have been unable to find out what its read out time is, or if they have another way of getting round the issue (reading the sensor with a random pattern of lines?) I don't think it is a truly global shutter i.e. one where every line is read at the same time.

Z9 has a readout speed of 1/270 sec (link), practically as fast as a mechanical shutter

[AndrewLT]

Once again, thanks for the thoughtful replies.

My conclusion is that the combination of an electronic shutter and a sensor with a slow readout time does indeed have characteristics that are worth being aware of (this would apply to any such camera, not just the M11), but it may well be that any limitations are outweighed by other positive things -- and, in many situations, will not matter.  And that it's not worth spending any more time thinking about it.

So these comments(my highlights) ....

16 hours ago, jonoslack said:

As I understand it the readout time is, indeed, 1/10 second (same as the Sony A7Iv but it doesn’t mean it’s the same sensor……or that it isn’t!), this certainly imposes some limits on the usefulness of the electronic shutter.

On the other hand, I’m in Crete right now with the M11 and the Noctilux 75, and the electronic shutter is a real bonus, and I’m not too worried about occasional distortion!

15 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

FWIW. I've tested the M11 readout speed myself by taking a picture of a lit LED lamp and then counted the bands in the image and applying simple calculation as recommended by someone else on another forum. 

I used the M11 in electronic shutter mode to take a picture of a lit lamp in a dark room with a 60Hz LED bulb and was able to clearly see and count the bands/scan lines in the image. *The key for me was to do this test in a dark room with lit lamp in order to see the bands/scan lines in the image. The frame showed 12 bands/scan lines. From what I read, a light bulb using alternating current at 60Hz turns on and off 120 times per second, so I divided 120 by 12 bands = 1/10s 

Too bad Leica does not publish this info as it can be important to know IMO.

Regardless, I'm getting away with a lot more than I thought I could with the M11's silent shutter to include what I call micro movements. Macros movements can indeed cause distortions but something to just keep in mind, same as we do with shutter speed when needed. 

Could be better, but I'm happy to shoot my Noctilux throughout the day without "screwing" around ( pun intended) with a brass ND filter during the day. 

15 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Exactly - same here - you can make squiffy pictures if you try, but for many uses it's fine.

.... encapsulate this very well.

I must confess, I was surprised by how easily I was able to observe distortion using an electronic shutter (assuming that it was indeed caused by hand shake and slow readout, which I can't be 100% sure of), which I posted on the first page of this thread, but it is also true that it did not always occur -- and, perhaps more importantly, my impression is that the electronic shutter images were, in other respects, better than those taken with the mechanical shutter.

As I said yesterday, I was beginning to wonder whether an M10-R might be the better choice for me (any M10 or M11 is arguably capable of much more than I am!!), although I also said that some of the other features of the M11 are rather tempting.  So, on reflection, it seems to me that, in practice, this really isn't something to be too worried about -- particularly given some of the other genuine advantages (not least ISO 64, the higher shutter speeds and the much improved battery) the M11 has to offer.  both cameras are clearly fantastic.  I may still plump for an M10-R but, if I do, it will not be purely because of this.

Thanks again ....

Andrew

[jaapv]

A very useful thread. Now I understand that an electronic shutter trades motion blur for distortion. So by eliminating not just shutter slap but all motion blur it is ideal for wildlife with long lenses, as distortion is a non-issue. It also explains the higher distortion with hi-res cameras. It is part of the motion blur discussion. 

[Overgaard]

The warping is prominent in series of images, and you can get an ida of what the warping does in this one where it's just a portrait. Not much to the face, but the top background is quite lively. 1/500 second shutter speed, the series taken within 1 second. 

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Edited May 9, 2022 by Overgaard

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Hallo,

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[Overgaard]

And here is another one of the warping effect of the Leica M11 electronic shutter. Camera handheld of course, and not much movement, a series taken within 2 seconds at 1/250 sec.

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Edited May 9, 2022 by Overgaard